Why is there a market for bullet pointing?

[Quinc]

Reading about the Whidden bullet pointing die and I find it odd that Berger and the rest of the companies are not already pointing there bullets (at least the vld target bullets) for the best possible BC?

 

[normmatzen]

At the risk of causing a rash of comments, I have always thought that the bullet mfg are a little bit smarter than most shooters!
There is a thing called "boundary effect" that is a layer of air (or any fluid medium) that an object moves through, It is a transition region where the fluid does not move at all at the object-fluid interface with respect to the object to the point the fluid does not move at with respect to the medium.
The effective shape of the object is what the edge of the boundary effect looks like. Makes no difference weather the object is very sharp or has a slight flat nose (like a quality bullet) the boundary effect limits the "sharpness."

I know, I have talked to folks that swear the speed is better when sharpening tips or the ballistics are better. But I have always wondered how this subject would stand up to real lab testing. I am always amazed at how much anecdotal evidence is sworn to in the shooting sport!

Wouldn't you think folks like Berger, Sierra and Hornady have done these tests and know exactly how sharpening effects ballistics? My guess is they have found that due to boundary effect, that extra expensive step is not justified. And, I believe this as all bullet manufacturers want the bullet with the best ballistics and if pointing gave them a justified edge, they would do it.

 

[CatShooter]

At the risk of causing a rash of comments, I have always thought that the bullet mfg are a little bit smarter than most shooters!
There is a thing called "boundary effect" that is a layer of air (or any fluid medium) that an object moves through, It is a transition region where the fluid does not move at all at the object-fluid interface with respect to the object to the point the fluid does not move at with respect to the medium.
The effective shape of the object is what the edge of the boundary effect looks like. Makes no difference weather the object is very sharp or has a slight flat nose (like a quality bullet) the boundary effect limits the "sharpness."

I know, I have talked to folks that swear the speed is better when sharpening tips or the ballistics are better. But I have always wondered how this subject would stand up to real lab testing. I am always amazed at how much anecdotal evidence is sworn to in the shooting sport!

Wouldn't you think folks like Berger, Sierra and Hornady have done these tests and know exactly how sharpening effects ballistics? My guess is they have found that due to boundary effect, that extra expensive step is not justified. And, I believe this as all bullet manufacturers want the bullet with the best ballistics and if pointing gave them a justified edge, they would do it.

Not hardly.

There are limits to how far a commercial manufacturer can go and still make a profitable/sell-able bullet - for the competition shooter, they can spend 5 minutes on each bullet before loading it - so then can weigh it, spin it, and point it - a manufacturer would be bankrupt in a week if they did all of this.

You need to remember that 95% of shooters do not need the "Nth degree" from a bullet, the way competition shooters do.

As to your theory of boundary effects being a limiting factor - pointing bullets has proven itself over and over - to be a measurable advantage in both the improvement in BC, and even more important, the uniforming of BC.

 

[ridgeway]

Reading about the Whidden bullet pointing die and I find it odd that Berger and the rest of the companies are not already pointing there bullets (at least the vld target bullets) for the best possible BC?

I know for a fact that Sierra 6mm 107's that are currently produced comes pointed.

 

[Keith Glasscock]

Give mr. Litz's book a read. He believes that it can be of benefit. That said, there are limits and the data only supports a small change in BC for the match bullets I have tested.

 

[dogdude]

Chuck, I think the new Sierra 107's are tipped, not pointed

 

[jr600yd]

Pointing is also relative to bullet diameter. Smaller caliber bullets say .224 benefit more from pointing than larger calibers, say .338 the reason is the diameter of the hollow point relative to the diameter of the projectile. The ratio is much higher for the smaller projectile. Hence pointing reduces the "hole" size and allows the bullet to be more "streamlined".

Next is it worth it? Depends on what your shooting. For the average shooter shooting at 100 yds the answer is NO! For the competitor shooting 600 - 1K yds the answer is YES. Pointing does increase the bullets "BC". Some claim up to 5%

 

[ridgeway]

Chuck, I think the new Sierra 107's are tipped, not pointed

Tipped, pointed can mean the same thing. The terminology is pretty loosely used. I refer to pointing as closing the meplat with a die. One can refer to tipping as the same. Hoover refers to their die as a tipping die. Whidden refers to their die as a pointing die. Anyhow, here is the new production 107's...

 

[nosualc]

Chuck, I think the new Sierra 107's are tipped, not pointed

Tipped, pointed can mean the same thing. The terminology is pretty loosely used. I refer to pointing as closing the meplat with a die. One can refer to tipping as the same. Hoover refers to their die as a tipping die. Whidden refers to their die as a pointing die. Anyhow, here is the new production 107's...

Seems to be a lot of confusion about Sierra's new offerings...

From what I've read here, the new 107s (as pictured) are indeed pointed (run through a pointing die).

They are ALSO offering a new set of bullets with plastic tips.

-nosualc

 

[normmatzen]

None of the comments on my comments on pointing have any connection to statistically based scientific tests. All is Anecdotal. All I said was my hunch. I would love to see some scientific test results. Convince me and I'll start making my bullets pointy! I am already working on my version of a bullet void detector.

And, yes I have read Mr. Litz's book and I would like to hear what he has in the way of scientific evidence.

 

[Ecomeat]

Given the simple fact that pointed 180 gr VLds and Hybrids in a 284 win will shoot 1/2 MOA to 1 1/2 MOA flatter, from 500 yds out to 1000 yards, if that is not an improvement in BC, then what is it ? It might be "compensation" at just one distance, but not possible over all of those distances. It has to be an improved BC., in my opinion

 

[Bryan Litz Ballistics]

The BC improvement for bullet pointing depends on the bullet. In general, you'll see between 3-6% improvement in BC, rarely as much as 8% or 10%.

Basically, the larger the meplat starts out, the more gain you get from pointing.

Here are some results of live fire measurements:

Berger .224 cal 77 gr BT: 1.8% improvement

Berger .243 cal 115 VLD: 5.5% improvement

Hoover .264 cal 136 gr: 2.4% improvement

Berger .284 cal 180 Hybrid: 9% improvement (larger than average meplat diameter on this bullet)

Berger .284 cal 168 and 180 VLD: 1% to 2% (see end of this article: http://www.appliedballisticsllc.com/Articles/ABDOC109_1_7mmPart1.pdf

Berger .308 cal 155 gr BT: 1% improvement

Berger .308 cal 155 gr VLD: 3.8% improvement

Note that all of the above data is from live fire measurements of BC.

Also note that the % improvement depends greatly on meplat diameter, and that's something that can change with bullet lots. You might see 6% improvement on a lot having larger than average tips, but then only 2% improvement in the next lot which come out of the box pointier.

The added complexity and cost of pointing bullets at the factory is the biggest reason it's not done for all bullets. It's hard to justify making your product more expensive for everyone to achieve such a small gain which only a few people would notice. That's why aftermarket pointers are good tools; those who care that much about it can do it if they prefer.

-Bryan

 

[ridgeway]

Bryan, in regards to the pointing dies one the market. They all have different punches/inserts for different bullets. Is there a particular shape that works better? I know some punches make a more defined point and others are more gradual of an angle that blends into the ogive.

 

[Bryan Litz Ballistics]

I designed the inserts for the Whidden system. In researching the issue you're asking about, I learned that you don't need to have a perfect blend from the point to the rest of the nose. In supersonic aerodynamics, and a favorable pressure gradient (like you have on the nose), it doesn't matter if the juncture is abrupt or gradual (think of a VLD vs. tangent ogive nose).

There are angles that are more suitable for different noses, from short and blunt to long and pointy. The solution was to provide 3 tipping angles, which one of them will be within +/- a degree or two from fitting any bullet nose. Whidden keeps a chart which indicates which tipping insert you should use for any given bullet.

The bullet pointers that require you to have a specific insert for each bullet such that the curved point matches/blends smoothly with the ogive don't reduce drag any more than the others. It may look more appealing to the eye, but there is no measurable difference, other than the cost of custom tooling for each bullet.

-Bryan

 

[ridgeway]

Thanks Bryan, that's quite helpful. The reason I ask is, I'm in the middle of making a sleeve and tipping punch for a non Whidden die to put a tip on Sierra 22 caliber 77's. Wasn't sure if I need to strive for a perfect blend or a short angled point. I'm just shooting a milspec AR and didn't want to dump a ton of money into tipping die parts.

 

[Quinc]

Berger .284 cal 180 Hybrid: 9% improvement (larger than average meplat diameter on this bullet)
-Bryan

Thank you for the reply Bryan!

I shoot the .284 180gr vld and hybrid bullets so that is what I am most interested in. Are you saying that some lots that come with the larger meplates have an 8% less than the claimed BC and that pointing them will only bring them up to the claimed BC. Or will pointing increase them above and beyond?

 

[Bryan Litz Ballistics]

The advertised BC is for the bullets as they're sold. You can improve it above that by pointing.

 

[Spin Drift]

Do any of you guys have experience with pointing the 6.5mm 130 VLD's?

I've seen claims of them going up to a G1 somewhere around 0.600, if that's the case then I would certainly be interested in doing the extra work. The puzzled look on my shooting buddy's face would be priceless when he tries to figure out what I've cooked up.

For those of you that are into pointing, what pointing tool do you recommend?

 

[Snuggie]

I purchased the Whidden pointing die. Used it on 80 SMK's for my .223. My X count went up dramatically! Will also be using for 168SMK & Hybrids for my .308. Well worth the investment!

 

[Jefferson]

The BC improvement for bullet pointing depends on the bullet. In general, you'll see between 3-6% improvement in BC, rarely as much as 8% or 10%.

Basically, the larger the meplat starts out, the more gain you get from pointing.

Here are some results of live fire measurements:

Berger .224 cal 77 gr BT: 1.8% improvement

Berger .243 cal 115 VLD: 5.5% improvement

Hoover .264 cal 136 gr: 2.4% improvement

Berger .284 cal 180 Hybrid: 9% improvement (larger than average meplat diameter on this bullet)

Berger .284 cal 168 and 180 VLD: 1% to 2% (see end of this article: http://www.appliedballisticsllc.com/Articles/ABDOC109_1_7mmPart1.pdf

Berger .308 cal 155 gr BT: 1% improvement

Berger .308 cal 155 gr VLD: 3.8% improvement

Note that all of the above data is from live fire measurements of BC.

Also note that the % improvement depends greatly on meplat diameter, and that's something that can change with bullet lots. You might see 6% improvement on a lot having larger than average tips, but then only 2% improvement in the next lot which come out of the box pointier.

The added complexity and cost of pointing bullets at the factory is the biggest reason it's not done for all bullets. It's hard to justify making your product more expensive for everyone to achieve such a small gain which only a few people would notice. That's why aftermarket pointers are good tools; those who care that much about it can do it if they prefer.

-Bryan

now that is worth a lot to me, and thank you sir

one of the guys in canada wants to meet your dad (as we understand he does the loading for you) but I would rather just read your thoughts and try to understand the facts and put them to good use, coming from a benchrest background i understand how to load (most days)

may I ask how do the 185 30 cal (juggs and others) rate for POTENTIAL increases,

thanks again i will sleep good tonight knowing I learned something today

Jefferson