Why do we ignore the horizontal deviation?

[Hondo64d]

Help me out here. In every description of the various versions of ladder and OCW load development methods I have seen, conventional wisdom says to ignore any horizontal distribution and attribute it to wind. We all know barrels oscillate upon firing but what law of physics makes them only oscillate in the vertical axis? Why don't they oscillate in the horizontal axis too? Or in a combination of vertical and horizontal axis? And, if that is the case, why are we ignoring the horizontal dispersion in ladder and OCW type load development?

Thanks,

John

 

[BoydAllen]

Actually, when you get down to real fine tuning there are loads that show no vertical and more horizontal than would be accounted for by the wind alone. I think that experience is the best teacher as to the best way to work up loads. Too often I correspond with shooters who do not understand why what they have taken off of the internet does not work exactly as they were told it would. Generally, you can do a lot of good preliminary tuning at 100 yards, over a chronograph, and then verify at full range. Back when 600 yard benchrest was a new sport, a fellow that I know, who shot some records, developed the loads in a friend's state of the art 100 yard tunnel. Not everyone uses the methods that you mentioned. I do not shoot long range, but I know how to tune at short range, and the fellows that I have helped develop loads for longer ranges seem to all be satisfied with the results. What ever you are doing, if it is outdoors, get some flags and learn how to read them.

 

[Northridge]

Horizontal dispersion is not ignored, but very much considered and adressed while applying my tuning regimen. The fact that you recognized that as a proscect tuning concern or variable leads me to be leave you think outside the box. Take nothing at face value and test for yourself.

Shawn

 

[savagedasher]

John
The point where a bullet changes from vertical to horizontal is a tune . Mite not be the correct one . But it is a tune. Larry

 

[jlow]

You are right that it goes both ways. I think people ignore the horizontal because they cannot distinguish it from wind effects. At least that is my own personal conclusion.

 

[Laurie]

Actually, when you get down to real fine tuning there are loads that show no vertical and more horizontal than would be accounted for by the wind alone. I think that experience is the best teacher as to the best way to work up loads. Too often I correspond with shooters who do not understand why what they have taken off of the internet does not work exactly as they were told it would. Generally, you can do a lot of good preliminary tuning at 100 yards, over a chronograph, and then verify at full range. Back when 600 yard benchrest was a new sport, a fellow that I know, who shot some records, developed the loads in a friend's state of the art 100 yard tunnel. Not everyone uses the methods that you mentioned. I do not shoot long range, but I know how to tune at short range, and the fellows that I have helped develop loads for longer ranges seem to all be satisfied with the results. What ever you are doing, if it is outdoors, get some flags and learn how to read them.

OMG! At last, someone knoweldgeable who knows this. I've had several rifles over the years that would produce near horizontal line groups if they didn't like the load. I have an excellent Barnard Model P based set-up that did this in both 308 and later .284 form. Again and again, I've seen other people's rifles do this in short-range testing, and the response so often is 'that's fine, good elevation, it's wind' - on days whe there are light and hardly variable winds across the range and simple reference to a ballistics chart would show that given high MVs and good bullet BCs that wind changes of 20mph + would be needed to produce the amount of dispersion.

The most irritating condition is the tight group of four plus a single lateral and bad flyer. Unless you really can blamed the wind, this must never be ignored. If it is a load induced condition, it not only ruins results but in the prone, slowfire disclplines gives one a false corrected windage reading that may also ruin the next shot if it is acted upon.

 

[Joe Salt]

I think there was a thread on this a while ago! But when I do the ladder test at 1000 yards and see horizontal but no vertical but have 3 shots together with say 2" of vertical that may be one grain hotter. I'll work with the vertical. Because there all pretty much shot in the same condition. So I say horizontal without the vertical will not shoot in the wind. And I need it to shoot through the wind at our range.

Joe Salt

 

[BoydAllen]

I cannot tell a lie. (Actually I can, but that is another story ;-) I had seen this, but was not confident enough to write about it until I reviewed the six YouTube segments of Jack Neary's presentation on benchrest (short range) shooting and tuning. I may have also read about it in one of the books that I have on the subject. IMO every shooter that strives for fine accuracy should watch those segments a couple of times, and take notes. There is a lot there to learn. My theory about those straight line groups is that when the barrel pauses at the top of its swing, before descending, it cannot express its energy with vertical movement, being pinned against the stop of its elastic limit, so it is free to move horizontally, in a random fashion. Pardon the imprecise language. Hopefully it will convey something resembling my thought.

 

[savagedasher]

Like I said earlier when the two come together that is a tune .
But the barrel also stops right and left up and down . Like Joe said all the above is effected by wind.
Where I shoot we have two winds 11 to 1
And a 5 to 7 . I call them winter and summer . I had to give up on just one gun . This winter one day we have winter winds and the next day summer. I have both and both have a different tune off the point of aim , one is when the barrel is in the upper right movement. The other is in the lower middle .
Both tunes are with no vertical or horizontal on target . Larry

 

[dkhunt14]

Larry Joe is saying he is hunting the load that shoots through the wind. Williamsport is a tough range. Wind is not forgiving or readable. I have shot at most of the 1000 yard ranges in the country. I see the two toughest ranges as Williamsport and Hawks Ridge. Good shooters come away scratching their heads. Everybody asks what do you watch and how do you read the wind. Matt

 

[Joe Salt]

I'll take that as a complement! What I look for is a cluster like when you get three or four shots that are in one hole. Then I know I'm on to something.

Joe Salt

 

[savagedasher]

Larry Joe is saying he is hunting the load that shoots through the wind. Williamsport is a tough range. Wind is not forgiving or readable. I have shot at most of the 1000 yard ranges in the country. I see the two toughest ranges as Williamsport and Hawks Ridge. Good shooters come away scratching their heads. Everybody asks what do you watch and how do you read the wind. Matt

What I said i.e. The same as Joe Our winds are tail or head winds . Both have different terrains the winds blow over. Along with the last 400 yards being a cut valley . 50' on one side 15 ' on the other . With large lums on both . The first 500 is flat with a 15,' foot berm on the left then has a 40 ' lump . Non readable Winds . Then on to of that with our rains and sun light and temeture the thing is a sauna.
My trip to Williamsport was A eye opeaner Friday practice I heard eveyone talking about the mirage. Our best day Was like I was practice in . I had mabey three foot of wind change. But live able . The only thing I would of liked was being able to adjust my turner. What my target was telling me I never had a 100 yd target for me to test on . So was it the load, the range , or me . But I dam sure had a great time along with meeting some great people .
Larry

 

[Joe Salt]

Larry I've tried tuning a 100 yards then go to 1000. Didn't work! I've had ES at a 100 yards at 6fps and it shot like 9" at our range. So all my testing is at 1000 yards. Now I just have to wait till April. You are not the only one to get burned at our range. A lot of times you my have to bring your loading stuff with you at different clubs. That's what I'm suggesting Tom does in July.

Joe Salt

 

[savagedasher]

Larry I've tried tuning a 100 yards then go to 1000. Didn't work! I've had ES at a 100 yards at 6fps and it shot like 9" at our range. So all my testing is at 1000 yards. Now I just have to wait till April. You are not the only one to get burned at our range. A lot of times you my have to bring your loading stuff with you at different clubs. That's what I'm suggesting Tom does in July.

Joe Salt

Joe i did but I never had tuned at 1000 . I had no idea you had a hundred yards range . Back then my guns didn't shoot like they do now. I never realized till now . My load that I had was Shooting 20 ''over your practice clays . That could explain my bullet blowing up The gun was shooting 3250 here It was 6.5 It was 8 twist. Larry

 

[dmoran]

....... My load that I had was Shooting 20 ''over your practice clays . That could explain my bullet blowing up

Hear that one a lot when someone misses the target all together..... lol
I like to use the "bullet hit a bird dropping" excuse and say "didn't you see the bird flying down at 800?"
But at the end of the day your finishing spot, is yours.... same for the excuses.
D

 

[savagedasher]

Hear that one a lot when someone misses the target all together..... lol
I like to use the "bullet hit a bird dropping" excuse and say "didn't you see the bird flying down at 800?"
But at the end of the day your finishing spot, is yours.... same for the excuses.
D

The scored is the same 9 only on target But they were 2 x 6 - 10 and 1 -9 that and a quarter will get you a cup of tea . Larry

 

[dmoran]

The scored is the same 9 only on target But they were 2 x 6 - 10 and 1 -9 that and a quarter will get you a cup of tea . Larry

Larry -
All that adds up to DQ...... Nothing more, nothing less !.!.!
D

 

[dkhunt14]

Hear that one a lot when someone misses the target all together..... lol
I like to use the "bullet hit a bird dropping" excuse and say "didn't you see the bird flying down at 800?"
But at the end of the day your finishing spot, is yours.... same for the excuses.
D

Donovan this has actually happened. Years ago a guy with a good gun only got 9 on. There was a guy watching the shots (Back of the line) go down range. When the line was called he went and told the guy that he only got 9 on. He said shot 8 hit a bird at about 800 yards out. He said it was a big poof of feathers. The guy lost his 10 match aggregates for the year by a bird flying by. Matt

 

[Joe Salt]

Matt yes the bird of true love the Swallow.

Joe Salt

 

[Alex Wheeler]

I have not shot as many ranges as some. Manatee was easy to read the wind and the flags told the truth, wind was usually very consistent. Mirage could be nasty. If I wanted to shoot there again, I would build a gun that tracks perfectly and trust it. It would shoot small.

I pay a lot of attention to horizontal. A tune can definitely shoot horizontal. But not on the initial ladder same as the others. Seating depth will take care of the horizontal.