Whidden seating die; seating stem for Berger 105 grain Hybrid - jolt on release

[SGK]

Just seated my first lot of bullets with this. It feels like the seating stem is getting stuck on the bullet because when I lower the ram (handle up) I get a jolt as the case is removed from the die. It occurs after the sprung portion of the die is fully extended. Am I missing something?

Also, I was a bit surprised to see a custom seating stem still engaging the bullet well closer to the nose than where a bullet comparator engages it (circa 1 thou less than nominal diameter). I would have thought the bullet would sit much further into the seating stem. I'm getting a ring on the bullet from the seating stem.

(Cal: 6mm Creedmoor)

 

[Dusty Stevens]

All you gotta do is call whidden and they will send you another one. Hard to make one stem for every bullet shape. If you wantvto fix it yourself a little crocus cloth and a drill will fix it right up

 

[SGK]

I was wondering if I am doing something wrong before I call Whidden. I can't think what else might be happening. If I take just the seating stem I can push it gently on a loaded round and lift the cartridge out of the loading block.

The seating stem is meant to be custom to this very bullet.

 

[fyrewall]

Hard to drill into some really hard tool steel seating stems - contact the maker for a possible replacement.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

Yeah that's not good. I have had dies do the same thing on bullets in a few calibers.

My solution was to drill out the stem and bed it to a seated bullet.

1) Drill out the stem so the hole is nice and straight and just slightly smaller than the bullet diameter. A mill is best, but a drill press will work too because the bedding will create perfect alignment. Stems are easy to drill with good bits.

2) Choose a case with a seated bullet that has virtually no runout (preferably .001" or less) and apply release agent to the entire bullet.

3) Apply release agent inside the seating die bullet seating chamber with long Q-tips

4) Clean then apply bedding in the drilled hole of the stem. Make sure you dont overdo the bedding to avoid having too much bedding overflow in the die.

5) Carefully re-seat the stem in the die a quarter turn shy of the seating depth used on the case you chose for the bedding job. This is to make sure no metal part of the stem contacts the bullet.

6) Run the case up in the die all the way into the stem and let it cure for a day.

7) When you break the bullet out the next day by stroking the press ram down, there is a very good chance you will pull the bullet out of the case neck. No big deal.

8) Remove the stem and lightly tap the bullet until it breaks free from the bedding.

9) Now drill out the center of the bedding to avoid the stem contacting the point of the bullet. The drill bit size used depends on caliber. You want to leave a good portion of the bedding in place to have more surface contact, but you dont want the bedding contacting the bullet too high on the ogive.

10) Trim overflow and chamfer bedding at base of stem. Now ready for very consistent seating.


Heres a list of seating depth and runout measurements I took on one of my standard Redding seating dies after bedding the stem. It is now extremely consistent. No bullets I measured from a small sample had more than .001" runout and the seating depths were all within .001" of each other save for one bullet that must have had a very slightly different ogive shape. But even that bullet measured only .0005" depth above the .001" window the others fell in.

 

[SGK]

Nice idea Ledd but likely beyond my workman skill level!

I have for now given the seating stem a good clean. If the problem persists with the next round of loading I will give Whidden a call.

 

[1shot]

Take some type of abrasive compound and pit it on one of your bullets. Either chuck it in some kind of motorized device and spin it, while gently pushing the seater stem against it. or, simply do it my hand. Once you have the inside corner broken on the stem, your problem will disappear.
I hope this helps,

Lloyd

 

[moondog]

Take some type of abrasive compound and pit it on one of your bullets. Either chuck it in some kind of motorized device and spin it, while gently pushing the seater stem against it. or, simply do it my hand. Once you have the inside corner broken on the stem, your problem will disappear.
I hope this helps,

Lloyd

This is exactly what I did on mine. Worked great.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Hard to drill into some really hard tool steel seating stems - contact the maker for a possible replacement.

Theyre not hardened at all. Just plain ole SS

 

[spclark]

Theyre not hardened at all. Just plain ole SS

For which I suggest using cobalt steel drills. The regular carbon steel, whether black oxide or TiN-coated (gold colored) dull very easily on stainless.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

Theyre not hardened at all. Just plain ole SS

True statement.

I've never had any issues drilling out seater stems. Definitely not hardened steel. Drill bits go into them easily, especially since you are only only taking out the walls of the stem. I use good quality cobalt "Drill Hog" drill bits these days for doing precision work since they run very straight and the cutting edge geometries are very uniform, but even the cheap Chinese bits will easily drill into a seater stem.

Amazon has a good deal on the cobalt Drill Hog bits if anyone is interested. They come with a lifetime replacement warranty as well. Link below.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01H9EC6MO/?tag=accuratescom-20

 

[fyrewall]

Lee seating dies with their "floating stems" are cheap & effective but contact most VLD bullet points causing the bullet to wobble upon seating. A normal fix would be to drill out the die seating stem to allow it to grip the ogive of the bullet instead of just the point then lapping the stem. Upon attempting this with a common carbon tool steel drill I was unsuccessful because the seating stem was not, "just ole SS". Same for the Hornady seating stems. Apparently in consideration of sustained use, with anticipation of subsequent wear, the manufacturers of these items have elected to use a harder steel like found in most tools. Thus in this particular instance these two items could not be touched with a common carbon tool steel drill (like drill forever with no results). Making a good fit using some soft epoxy bedding would only be temporary.

The consequences of this particular situation are aggravating, especially when premium prices have been paid for the product. Like just get the manufacturer to provide a product to satisfy specifications which would in this case enable no stick seating of a specific bullet. The manufacturer has failed to satisfy this need thus logically should be contacted to provide a remedy. Use of the die with a non-authorized modification might void any warranty. Making the Whidden seating stem deeper probably would not fix a binding problem.

I would imagine that Whidden would anticipate seating stem wear and make their seating stems from hard tool steel. None of my much cheaper Hornady seating stems that are intended for ELD M and ELDX bullet use exhibit any tendencies to seize a bullet upon seating same and can't be touched with an ordinary tool steel drill. I would expect Whidden with its highly regarded products would equal or surpass Hornady. I have not attempted to drill out other manufacturers seating stems and avoid making "blanket statements" to imply universal applicability.

In closing, I would suggest contacting Whidden for a free fix rather than to ruin some twist drills, spend money for some other way to drill out the stem, or spend time to lap out the stem using a spinning bullet coated with abrasive. All these suggestions would be an amateur attempt to fix a carefully designed and engineered product like the Whidden seating stem.

Just let Whidden deal with their defect. Send the little seating stem and a sample bullet back to Whidden in a cheap padded envelope.

Should there be just some black crud inside the seating stem preventing it from not working as intended Whidden would probably be happy to see the black crud be removed with some sharp needle like implement.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

Lee seating dies with their "floating stems" are cheap & effective but contact most VLD bullet points causing the bullet to wobble upon seating. A normal fix would be to drill out the die seating stem to allow it to grip the ogive of the bullet instead of just the point then lapping the stem. Upon attempting this with a common carbon tool steel drill I was unsuccessful because the seating stem was not, "just ole SS". Same for the Hornady seating stems. Apparently in consideration of sustained use, with anticipation of subsequent wear, the manufacturers of these items have elected to use a harder steel like found in most tools. Thus in this particular instance these two items could not be touched with a common carbon tool steel drill (like drill forever with no results). Making a good fit using some soft epoxy bedding would only be temporary.

I dont know about LEE and Hornady stems.

Just curious where you are getting your info that seating a stem with epoxy is a "temporary" fix? Have you ever actually successfully performed the operation on one of your dies?

My bedded stems have seated countless bullets over the years with no issues so I am not sure how you believe it is a temporary fix? Just asking.

 

[fyrewall]

Whidden claims their custom seating stems will not mark up bullets. This implies their seating stems are precisely made; they charge $20 for this service (not cheap); it should work. I don't know what the actual Rockwell or comparable hardness testing of a Whidden seating stem is and would avoid making any declarations about drilling out the Whidden seating stem until I obtained these data or actually attempted it. Possibly die manufactures like to use hard tool steel to make their products because it resists wear well; this would extend to seating stems.

I have had no need to epoxy bed the insides of my seating stems so I have no record of performance of this. (if it isn't busted don't fix it) Repetitive contact between relatively soft epoxy and a much harder bullet jacket material will only cause the softer material to degrade (wear). I have no comments regarding the spending habits of others. Lining seating stems with cheap soft epoxy might be cost effective to avoid machining costs but I don't see this happening.

Does anybody have Rockwell or comparable hardness testing info for the Whidden seating stem? My ordinary carbon steel drills won't touch my Redding seating stem, possibly Redding seating stems have comparable hardness' as Whidden, Hornady or the incredibly cheap Lee stuff (excepting aluminum parts).

Send the tiny little Whidden seating stem and sample bullet back to Whidden in a cheap padded envelope and realize your $20 for a custom product.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

Sounds like your drill bits might be pretty dull. I've drilled out Redding and RCBS stems with no issues at all. Pick up a set of those Drill Hog bits I posted a link on. Lifetime replacement warranty so you wont need to buy again. They will drill out seating stems like a hot knife through butter.

Bedding a stem is not just a fix, it's an improvement. Just the same as bedding your action improves accuracy of the rifle, bedding seating stems on seating dies helps to create more consistent and accurate ammo.

My other seating dies are Wilson in-lines and they do not require modification for VLD bullets when using the VLD stem. I get good consistency with custom chambered Wilson seaters so I dont see the need to bed the stems.

 

[clowdis]

Are you sure it's the stem? I have a Forester die that does the same thing, but only on fired brass. If I full length size the brass it won't stick in the sleeve of the seater. Are you using fired or fully resized brass?

 

[SGK]

New brass. I'm pretty sure the brass isn't sticking.

 

[Mikemontminy]

I agree with bedding the stem or using lapping compound n the bullet to correct the angle of the seating stem. Also a good idea to redo when switching lot numbers even though it’s the same bullet the angles may be different. You will see more consistent lengths when seating bullets.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

If your ogive measurement is varying its the stem sticking

 

[fyrewall]

Looking at the Redding site - "Though the stem is heat treated to make it strong as possible it will not endure excess seating pressure of compressed charges". Why would Redding and other die makers heat treat seating stems? My guess is to prevent distortion and make them wear resistant. The advisory also uses the word, "hone" for die parts- this implies a grinding operation vs. a machine cutting type operation. Then consider making stems with a cylinder shaped recess for use with a soft epoxy liner - a cheap way to manufacture the item but it is not done. My guess is such an epoxy lined seating stem would quickly wear out or break. My original comment regarded the hardness of seating stems, they are not "plain ole SS". My experience has shown that applying a common, new, hardened steel twist drill to a heat treated seating stem will only make the drill dull and not make the seating stem deeper.

Possibly the die makers coat bullets with abrasives for some lapping operation to achieve a good ogive fit with the insides of a seating stem. Not seeing or discussing this procedure with Redding or others, my thoughts are that the lapping process be best done prior to heat treating the stem when the steel is softer then heat treating the stem. Should the dimensions of the ogive require removing even a small amount of material from a hard heat treated seating stem such a lapping operation would be an aggravation and take a long time. Attempting to perform this with "crocus cloth" would just unevenly polish the insides of the stem. Bullet ogives of the same bullet could be expected to vary somewhat, especially from lot to lot. The die makers probably compensate for that by only providing adequate stem depth and some well placed contact area between stem and bullet ogive to provide good straight bullet seating yet allow for minor changes in bullet ogives between bullet lots. I would not be surprised to hear that some manufacturing details are regarded as "proprietary" by the die makers and not open to discussion.

The OP said he could lift a cartridge by just using the seating stem. He also claimed that rounds "stuck" upon lowering the press ram. Rings were observed on seated bullets. The seating stem appeared to not be deep enough for the bullet. All this suggests a defective seating stem and it being likely this stem is heat treated like all the other seating stems I have seen, no amount of amateur drilling or lapping is going to fix it.

My suggestion to the OP remains unchanged - put the stem and a sample bullet in a padded envelope and send the both to Whidden. The OP probably paid $20 for some seating die stem that is inadequate for his intended use.

I would still like to see some actual hardness measurements for the Whidden seating stem as compared to the hardness of available twist drills.