When to start?

[3081FTR]

This is what it looks like when you can't put on the brakes

I'm a believer in focusing on processes not outcomes. Get the process right and the outcome will follow.
Maybe forget about wind reading and trigger pulling etc and work on patience (if that is why you can't stop).
Think about what it was that made you keep going, or was it that you just had no strategy so of course you will keep shooting. Where is your focus 30 minutes prior to shooting - what are you thinking about are you reinforcing to yourself that you can read the wind or thinking about all the times you got it wrong?

 

[Steve Blair]

I'm a believer in focusing on processes not outcomes. Get the process right and the outcome will follow.
Maybe forget about wind reading and trigger pulling etc and work on patience (if that is why you can't stop).
Think about what it was that made you keep going, or was it that you just had no strategy so of course you will keep shooting. Where is your focus 30 minutes prior to shooting - what are you thinking about are you reinforcing to yourself that you can read the wind or thinking about all the times you got it wrong?

That which is not measured does not get fixed. How is the correct process determined if not weighed against the outcome and modified accordingly? Wishing for success does not make it happen. Study, practice, and continual improvement driven by results works on the firing line exactly as it does in manufacturing and elsewhere.

Successful precision shooting, regardless specific discipline, requires attaining mastery of all aspects; rifle, ammunition, gun handling, aiming, trigger execution, wind reading, mental control, strategy, etc. No aspect can one "forget about" and expect to excel.

 

[Ned Ludd]

That which is not measured does not get fixed. How is the correct process determined if not weighed against the outcome and modified accordingly? Wishing for success does not make it happen. Study, practice, and continual improvement driven by results works on the firing line exactly as it does in manufacturing and elsewhere.

Successful precision shooting, regardless specific discipline, requires attaining mastery of all aspects; rifle, ammunition, gun handling, aiming, trigger execution, wind reading, mental control, strategy, etc. No aspect can one "forget about" and expect to excel.

Or as my grade school writing teacher (whom was also the school Principal) used to say, "Perfect practice makes perfect". "Perfect" means some readout of success is necessary.

 

[Tim Singleton]

Or as my grade school writing teacher (whom was also the school Principal) used to say, "Perfect practice makes perfect".

That's it in a nut shell. Not enough experience yet. Beginning to recognize a shootable condition, I'm just not able to react to what I see change in time to stop shooting I'm trying to force in that last shot. Another few years maybe

 

[3081FTR]

That which is not measured does not get fixed. How is the correct process determined if not weighed against the outcome and modified accordingly? Wishing for success does not make it happen. Study, practice, and continual improvement driven by results works on the firing line exactly as it does in manufacturing and elsewhere.

Successful precision shooting, regardless specific discipline, requires attaining mastery of all aspects; rifle, ammunition, gun handling, aiming, trigger execution, wind reading, mental control, strategy, etc. No aspect can one "forget about" and expect to excel.

I nearly deleted the post as I figured there might be some push back.

Yes I agree with you. The outcome is the measurement but not the focus. Focus in this instance being processes such as controlling mind sets, thought patterns, rifle control, loads, a strategy for the shoot, a mind set to change the strategy if its not working etc.
It might be the op has already analysed his issues and related them to - "knowing to when to start" but later in the thread he mentioned he has difficulty in stopping. Could be that I took his other post out of context but the combination of the two posts suggested that there might be more he has to think about in terms of how to get a better outcome than just wind reading.
No aspect can one "forget about" and expect to excel.
Never a more true post - it is the basis for my comments.

Edit- just saw Tims update. I strongly suspect he is seeing the change but not trusting himself to stop and as he states forcing the shot in. That mind set might never be corrected or could take many years to address if only wrapped up in the context of wind reading ability.
Hopefully this places a little more context on my original post.

 

[BartsBullets]

Guys Tim Singleton is an excellent shooter and he has come a long way in a short period of time. Not stopping or trying to force the last shot in 100/200 yard benchrest is common. He knows what he has to work on and I promise you he will figure it out.

Everyone who shoots competitively, if they are honest about their shooting has a nemesis. As far as conditions go mine is a let-up. If I'm having a bad short range match that's usually the reason.

I've got to give Tom credit for his excellent post. That was a first class answer from a shooter that's at the top of his sport.


Bart

 

[Tim Singleton]

Guys Tim Singleton is an excellent shooter and he has come a long way in a short period of time. Not stopping or trying to force the last shot in 100/200 yard benchrest is common. He knows what he has to working and I promise you he will figure it out.

Everyone who shoots competitively, if they are honest about their shooting has a nemesis. As far as conditions go mine is a let-up. If I'm having a bad short range match that's usually the reason.

I've got to give Tom credit for his excellent post. That was a first class answer from a shooter that's at the top of his sport.


Bart

Bart
Thanks for those kind words
All of you guys in the short range br world have went out of your way to help a new guy. I try to pay attention when you guys talk

 

[BartsBullets]

Back to Tims original question.

When to start your group?


On this board with the different disciplines the question means different things due to the nature of the competition.

In 100/200 yard Benchrest I refer to "when to start" as "timing." If the conditions permit and your timing is perfect, you would shoot your five record shots and never vary your aiming point. It's not often that this is the case. Even in the worst of conditions if a shooter's timing is good, they should be able to get 3 shots on record before having to stop. You know your timing is completely crap if you get one shot off and have to stop because of changing conditions. I've done that a bunch.
I'm often asked which flag is most important or which flag are you watching? For the most part I'm not watching a particular flag or even my row of flags, but looking over the entire range, scanning the far sides left and right to see what is coming at me. Trying to gauge if the condition will hold long enough to start and finish a group or if I will have to hold into the condition as it increases. Pretty much trying to determine the overall flow of the condition.

On the other hand F Class shooters use the first match with unlimited sighters to help them get centered up and determine when to shoot. They watch and keep an eye on mirage, check the range flags to see where conditions are coming from and what is moving the bullets. During the match top guys are watching/studying to see what's going on with competitors on the left and right and going to school off of there shots. Due to the nature of the competition F Class guys can't "run" their shots. They have to navigate conditions for 20 shots strings. It's almost like each shot is a small match in itself.

I'd say Tom's post is about as good as it gets for 1000 and 600 yard bench shooting. The big keys here are having a great shooting combination and the ability to get them down there quickly and accurately.

Bart

 

[3081FTR]

Bart
Thanks for those kind words
All of you guys in the short range br world have went out of your way to help a new guy. I try to pay attention when you guys talk

Tim - best of luck - don't take my words as negative - just a different perspective that can be thought about or discarded as you want. The better you get the more the mind becomes important IMO.

Bart - the unlimited sighter thing is a US thing as far as I can tell so what you describe in your second paragraph nails it for F-class in other countries too where they only ever get two sighters. You will often hear the terms "gun n run" or "picking their way through it" in F-class discussions as well.

Great thread.

 

[Tim Singleton]

Just awesome that we have the men on this forum willing to share what has taken years to master
Much appreciated this is the stuff that matters

 

[Terry]

Where is Al Forbes?

I have never met anyone more patient that Al.

I have seen him wait 9 minutes and 30 seconds just to shoot 5 rounds in less that 15 seconds.

Hopefully he will share.

 

[dkhunt14]

Where is Al Forbes?

I have never met anyone more patient that Al.

I have seen him wait 9 minutes and 30 seconds just to shoot 5 rounds in less that 15 seconds.

Hopefully he will share.

I don't believe AL will reply. I think he is in a van down by the river shooting coyotes. He watches the forum from time to time but doesn't post much anymore. I think he got tired of all the negative feedback like Jim and some others did. Matt

 

[dedogs]

How the hell does it not drive you nuts SEEING that you're aim is like 10 thousands off the center?

Tom, It's all about perspective.

 

[DaveTooley]

This is my process at 1K. I study the conditions as soon as I get my rifle setup. I want to have an idea of the extremes before the announcement to commence fire. The first two shots I get close to zeroed. If in one of the observed extremes, I'll favor one side or the other. I'll get zeroed close enough that my brain can compare changes in bullet impacts VS the clay bird. Then I wait for wind changes before firing another shot. I see many shooters firing at the 5,4,3,2,1 minutes to go. Why would you just randomly fire a shot if not to learn something. As conditions change I fire a shot and mentally log the impact change for possible use later. If there's a cycle in the wind changes by the one minute mark I should have a good idea what's coming next and I start my zeroing process. Sometimes that starts at the 30 second mark, sometimes at about 20 seconds to go. All the while watching the wind cycle, I get zeroed so I will score as high as possible. Meaning if the wind is near max velocity I'll get zeroed at 3 o'clock or 9 o'clock respectively, I'll be expecting a let up during my record string which brings the group back across the x-ring. If it's during a lull I'll zero expecting a pick up to push me back across the x-ring. Once I start my record string I'll hold for wind changes. Maybe not full value but always some and I'll keep shooting.

Here's an extreme example of using the sight in period for more than zeroing the rifle. NBRSA Nationals in Colorado one year. The wind was nasty, very nasty. Hvy gun relay. Everyone was off the target on the first sighter shot. I took notice of the impact vs condition. The wind changed completely as we work our way through the sight in period and when it came time for the record string the world again turned upside down as it began. Everyone was blasting away and I knew they were off the paper. I waited until about two minutes to go hoping it would change back for the zero I had on the rifle. It showed no signs of changing so I put the cross hairs out in the dirt where I had seen the first sighter shot impact and gave the windage knob several turns to get the crosshairs on the target. Shot my group, only one on paper with I think a 70+ score. Every shot is a data point.