Whats going on here? Shoulder bump vs full length re-size problem

[1shot]

I just started loading for my new Palma rifle, and it has the new 2011 Palma chamber cut in it. The problem lies in when I size the fired brass, I’m either bumping the shoulder to far back, (.005+) of where I’m trying to keep the shoulder dimension, or the shoulder is bumped to the proper size but the base isn’t getting sized enough to get smooth chambering and extraction. I’m using Redding competition sizing dies with the neck bushing, and I had a bump gage made with my reamer when I had the chamber cut so I could accurately measure the shoulder set back. Can someone offer up some advice on what’s going on?
Thanks in advance for your thoughts,
Lloyd

 

[fl3gun]

I had the very same problem with a new Redding 6br type s die.

I had to send it back to them with 3 fired cases. They did make me a very nice new custom fit die at no charge ;D

 

[82boy]

I have never found Redding dies to fit right. With the fired brass measure it, and then size it and measure it again, subtract the two measurments to get the amount of set back. I like to bump the shoulders back about 1 to 2 thousands. If you was to bump the sholder back to far you would have the round go too deep into the chamber, and the round would fail to extract. What do you mean chambering and extrating problems. Are you getting a hard bolt down? A hard bolt lift, the round will not extract, or what.

 

[expiper]

who made the reamer...

if it wasnt Kiff you are just rolling the dice,,,,his std off the shelf reamer is in concert with Redding dies....but the chamber might be wallowed out in the back (at the .200 line) which will necesitatel extra sizing to squeeze the ctg. enuff to get it bak in the gun.....take some measurements.....you have the chamber and fired rounds to work with....measure the fired rounds at the .200 line.....if they are too fat and no excess pressure the chamber is wallowed out.....Roger

 

[1shot]

Patrick and Roger,
I’ll try and address both your questions in one reply. I find that .001 shoulder set back to be about perfect. I measure a fired case inserted into my bump gage, then fine tune the adjustment of the die by using die shims to get exactly what I’m looking for. I double-check that measurement by removing the firing pin assembly from the bolt and using just the bolt body to see how the sized case chambers. If the bolt handle falls down, I’ve sized it to much. If I have to really shove the handle down, not enough. I like to have just enough resistance so that the handle goes down with just the weight of my finger.
In regards to hard extraction, I’m talking about the last ¼” of bolt lift when the bolt pulls the brass from the chamber.
Expiper, the reamer is a Kiff, and I own several so that shouldn’t be the issue. However, I’ll double check just to be sure.
On a final note, I have an old RCBS small base die and as an experiment I ran a piece of brass through the die and it chambered perfectly. The problem is it re-sizes the neck and moves the shoulder way too much. So I’m thinking I’ll just put it in the lathe and remove the top of the die and use it for sizing the bases only, and then switch to the Redding to do the de-prime, shoulder bump and neck size operation. I’m working on a Redding T-7 press, so a quick rotation of the head is all that is involved. Does this sound like a workable solution to you guys?
Lloyd

 

[DCRYDER]

First off to my knowledge the Redding competition neck die is not supposed to bump the shoulder back.

How deep is your chamber gauge reamed? If it is a full sized chamber how do resized brass fit in it?

Sticky bolt lift at the top sounds like loads too hot or chamber a little too rough.

 

[spclark]

Many (most?) Palma chambers really benefit from having a small base die used on the brass they're to work with. I started using one this past season on the advice of a gunsmith of good reputation (he didn't build my gun) & my case sizing issues went away.

I use the SB die to size the body, then a neck bushing die to size necks. You may want to go the same route.

 

[82boy]

Sounds to me like the brass is not getting FL sized. If I understand right you are using a Redding FL sizing die and backing it off untill it is just bumping back the shoulder is this correct? If so, what it sounds like is the die doesn't match the chamber, and it is not sizing down the brass properly. IMO using two dies is extra work, and may cause problems in the long run.

If you want my honest opinion, I would chuck the Redding die. I have sat there and modified dies, and done many steps and it just dont pay off. At this time, I dont own a single Redding die, and there is a reason why. If I was in your shoes I would just send a piece of fired brass off the Lynwood Harrell with $70 bucks and get a great proper fitting die in return.

 

[1shot]

82 boy,
You are spot on. I am using a Redding FL re-sizing die, and if I take it down any further, I’m over bumping the shoulder. Any less and I’m not getting the base sized enough. To those that suggest that my loads are to hot, It doesn’t matter how mild the load is, as in I’m doing a ladder test and start really low, the problem remains the same. It sounds like its time to send some fired brass to Lynwood Harrell.
Thanks,
Lloyd

 

[BoydAllen]

You need a die that is smaller in the back.

Small Base Type S FL die
http://www.redding-reloading.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=36%3Aspecial-small-base-body-full-length-a-type-

 

[falconpilot]

Use a normal redding body die to size and bump shoulder. It will work, while the type s bushing die's wouldn't. I size/bump shoulder with the normal body die, then knock the primer out and size with a Redding type s neck die...You have to do to steps, but the Redding dies will work...

Good luck...

 

[Innovative]

lloyd .....

A small base die will not help if your shoulder length is not set correctly for your particular chamber, and you're right ...... the symptom you described will not be affected with lighter loads. It's best to use just one FL die .... if you set it properly, and that takes "measuring" to get it exactly right.

Google the "Digital Headspace Gauge" and read how it works. It's a very simple tool for reloaders that want to make handloads fit a chamber perfectly. It also works on ALL different calibers - without requiring any attachments or special bushings.

 

[spclark]

This one?

http://www.larrywillis.com/

I had the same problem in a Palma chamber. Small base die cleared it up. Palma's not a "light load" discipline though, but sizing the base diameter properly just won't work with some FL dies if the chamber's snug at the back.

What lube is used also matters I found. I used to use Imperial but went to another brand & type at the recommendation of the 'smith (who pit me onto the SB die fix) & haven't had a problem since.

 

[Innovative]

spclark .....

That's the one.

___________________________________________

1shot ......

There are 2 common reasons (about 99%) for handloads to not chamber. Your handloads are either too long at the shoulder, or they're too wide above the web (solid part of your case).

It's easy to determine which one is your problem by measuring case width using calipers, and use the Digital Headspace Gauge to compare your handloads (at the shoulder) to one of your fired cases.

The Digital Headspace Gauge reveals a lot of surprises about how YOUR handloads fit in YOUR particular chamber. It also shows how poorly most factory loads fit.

Many shooters don't realise that pushing the shoulder back too far causes a case to stretch too far when fired. That thins the brass and leads to headspace separation. If the brass gets too thin, your case can bulge during the reloading process. Avoid that and you'll rarely need to use a SB die.

 

[1shot]

Innovative,
We are on the same page as to what is going on here. Please understand that I’m not new to the reloading game. I’m 54 years old and have been loading since I was a teenager and shooting competitively since I was 12. As stated in previous posts, I know how to set up a die to get a bare minimum of shoulder set back and still get the cartridge to chamber properly. This is obviously a dimensional issue with the die, relative to the reamer that was used to cut the chamber. If I could magically lengthen the die .005 in the middle, the problem would go away. As I stated in previous posts, I set up the die so it’s very close, but a little deep in the press. I then use die shims to raise the die to get the perfect shoulder bump. My “smith” tells me if I’m getting over .001of shoulder bump, it’s to much. That is confirmed with the bolt body test allowing it to close in the actual chamber. To get the base back to it’s correct dimension I need to remove .005 of shim stock from underneath the die in order to size the base properly, which in turn over bumps the shoulder by the same amount.
So, as I see it my options are:
1. To live with excessive space between the shoulder and the chamber, (not good considering it head spaces from that point) the datum line, to get the base sized properly.
2. Bump the shoulder to its proper location and deal with hard opening/closing because of a base that isn’t sized to the proper dimension.
3. Purchase a custom die made for this specialty chamber and do it in one operation.
4. Use my small base die to do the base and the Redding FL die to do everything else.
Can someone think of any other options I may have missed?
Thanks,
Lloyd

 

[GermanS1]

Lloyd, the small-base Type S die that Boyd mentioned above is an excellent item, I often use it for that very purpose. As you mentioned, the problem is one of compatibility between chamber and die dimensions. I think sometimes we get hung up on labels like "small base", we might be better off if we just had a size assigned to each chamber reamer and die so that the compatibility issues would be clearer.

Depending on how much you're resizing the neck, you may want to do an initial neck size with an intermediate bushing, then do your final neck and FL sizing with the Type S small base. The two step process is covered here: http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2010/04/reloading-two-step-sizing-and.html

 

[Shynloco]

1shot,
I'm going to throw in my two cents just for info. I certainly do not claim the expertise you and the others have, but I'm a bit older than you and have used something nobody else has mentioned so I thought I'd offer it up for your consideration. It works for me and I think its the next best thing to have customer cut dies that match your chamber.
I reload for my 6mmbr. Most of my dies are Redding and Wilson. But whenever my casings need their shoulders bumped (which is rarely after 17 reloads using Lapua brass) I use a Redding Body Die and Redding Competition Shell Holders to get than minimum shoulder bump that is needed (.001 - .002) for smooth cycling and bolt closure. I was taught that method by a friend who fits very closely into your background in terms of age and competition history. Hope this can be of some help to you.

 

[Rtheurer]

Brother Lloyd

Can you wait until I get back? My plan for loading for The rather Large New Palma chamber is to order a Warner Die from Dan after I fire a few pieces of brass. Is this going to be expensive? You bet it is. Just like that Kelby action and March scope you have. But Like you, I have never shyed away from the right tool for the job and in this case I believe custom is going to be an evil Ill have to pony up to. Ive already excepted it before Ive even started. The custom Herrell die for the 6BR has been the most enjoyable perfect fit I have ever seen. Im hoping the Warner is the same. I have found its easier to make the chamber Fit the die rather than the other way around like most people do. Like an old Painter told me on a floor job one day. Dont paint yourself into a corner boy. Point taken sir. Since Im forced to shoot the larger chamber to meet the International Rules I will need a custom die.

Maybe we can get a two for discount?

Russt

 

[Innovative]

1shot ......

There is a real need for SB dies, but they are used way too often, and it's possible for them to create extra problems. (I'm not saying always).

You're right about the possible difference between your chamber and the particular FL die you have. Measure the diameter of ALL your cases just above the web, and see if your tight fitting cases show a pattern of having a bit larger diameter in this area. This helps determine your actual chamber size and that will explain a lot .... maybe just confirm.

As you know, all chambers are different even when they're made with the same reamer.

 

[1shot]

OK guys, the problem is solved. After going to the link the German supplied us with, it seems tat because of the generous chamber the neck needs to be taken down in two steps. I know it doesn’t make sense at first when the problem is the diameter of the base, but I’m telling ya, I did exactly what German posts in his article and everything is as it should be! Thanks German. Now if this Ohio weather would just act right for a few days, I’ll be able to get some rounds down range. Russ, no I can’t wait for you to get back. The faster your feet hit the US soil, the better I’ll like it. Be safe my friend,
Lloyd