What Would You Do???

[AstroGuy]

Ok so I bought a brand new gun (not ready to tell you just yet what brand/model it is yet you will see it in the picture I uploaded) broke in the barrel by 1 shot running patches through then 3 shots running patches through then 5 shots then running patches through and repeated the 5 shot/cleaning sequence 3 more times. Then started sighting in with some ammo.
At 1st I was pretty disappointed but as I started to test different lots of ammo I had found in the end that SK Red Box shoots the best out of it.
Then I played around with the action screws a bit and found the tork settings that it seemed to like and worked with that. Continued to test more ammo and everything I had that goes from CCI standard, green tag, HV, SK yellow box, red box, orange box, grey box, moved on with Eley black box/match and some orange box/club. In the end I have found that this gun seems to shoot the SK red box the best. But here is the kicker, always have fliers, and you cannot shoot a group consistently with this gun!
My setup for testing/bench resting is in the picture I uploaded.

I’ve run now about 400-500 rounds through the barrel and always cleaned the barrel after every session. I 1st run a patch down the barrel with some Bore Tech rim fire cleaner and then run some carbon remover for good measure making sure I use a mop that is saturated at the chamber for 5-10 minutes before finishing the cleaning with patches and a lightly coated patch with oil and then a dry patch to take any excess out of the bore.

This afternoon decided to try some more testing and was so frustrated I decided to seriously look closer at the inside of the bore and found what I personally consider to be a horrendous machining job on the chamber and entrance to the barrel/rifling.

I’ve uploaded these for you all to see and get your opinions on what you would do here. I also pulled the barrel off and measured the bore in the action and the diameter of the barrel that goes in the action and found there to be over .003” slop in this fit not to mention chips in the notches where the setscrews go to hold the barrel in place! Obviously I cleaned that out and I decided to shim the barrel diameter to the bore to fit much tighter but I don’t know that that’s going to help with this bore looking like this. Full disclosure here I’m a 35yr retired tool and die maker and if I ever put out work like this I’d never have made it that long in the trade.

Let me know your thoughts on the barrel pix. Am I being to picky here or what?

Thanks!

 

[Allen R]

Hard to tell by your pics. But I attached one pic from the chamber that came on mine. Junk and poor quality control imo. Bought a Bartlein off of Whidden and shoot NRL 22 and play around with local BR matches a bit. In my experience a little lead in the bore of a factory rifle is a good thing especially with SK ammo. I tried the get it clean every time method and found my consistent accuracy didn’t come back for about 20 or so shots so I started just cleaning the carbon. Couple fouling shots and it’s ready to go.

 

[AstroGuy]

Thanks for the info, looking at yours its similar to what I have in my barrel rough finish.
If you look closely at my barrel it’s clear that there was galling going on when they were working it. A good indication it needed more lubricant but I’m not a gun drill operator. All I know is its a rough bore when you consider this is supposed to be an MTR barrel!

 

[tmwinds]

MTR barrels aren’t any better than other CZ barrels. The chamber is just a little tighter but the barrels are basically mass produced hammer forged barrels. If it will consistently shoot one MOA (.5 at 50 yards) consider yourself lucky. Better ammo might help with the fliers.

 

[MUP]

Have you got any target pics of your groups? Just wondering what size the groups are and how bad off the flyers are. Also have you tried any Lapua ammo? I'm an old tool and die guy too btw .

 

[ggshoots]

1. With rimfires I am a believer in leaving them fouled. When you get done shooting you can run a wet patch through then a couple dry patches and leave it at that. Its not a centerfire.

2. You could lap the chamber and bore staying away from the muzzle end just hitting it lightly. You may have a couple burrs in there causing problems.

3. Lastly if your not going to be switching barrels you can get rid of the set screw, use a bearing adhesive and set your headspace getting rid of the slop all in one. I typically use a gel for this. I have sleeved the tenons on some barrels turning them down then adding the sleeve and turned to correct dimension but I might try the gluing method first as that is how I install most rimfire barrels.

That is what I do, learned from a pretty good rimfire smith and he really loved working on CZ's. If you have access to a reamer you could also shorten the tenon, adjust the shoulder, rechamber and give it a whirl. All else fails buy a new barrel. If you have to hire everything done, buy a new barrel. Sounds like you have the equipment and knowledge so just do the work.

Good luck.

 

[AstroGuy]

MTR barrels aren’t any better than other CZ barrels. The chamber is just a little tighter but the barrels are basically mass produced hammer forged barrels. If it will consistently shoot one MOA (.5 at 50 yards) consider yourself lucky. Better ammo might help with the fliers.

I’ve not heard that in all honesty, just that the MTR barrels are very good on the CZ’s. I for the most part am getting 1/2’’ groups at 50yds but my Cz @one which isn’t a chambered barrel will consistantly shoot .300” groups at 50yds. And when things line up right I’ve had consistant .2-.25 groups. And the @1 barrel is absolutely beautiful inside that bore/chamber.

Thanks for the Reply!

 

[AstroGuy]

Have you got any target pics of your groups? Just wondering what size the groups are and how bad off the flyers are. Also have you tried any Lapua ammo? I'm an old tool and die guy too btw .

Here is what I shot yesterday after noon. I don’t have any Lapua on hand so no I haven’t other then I’ve heard that the SK yellow & Red box are manufactured on retired machinery from Lapua.
You’ll notice that I had 1 group that I shot 1 hole with Eley Match but after that I couldn’t get it to shoot close to that group again. All shot at 50yds.

Maybe I’m expecting to much from this gun then. I’ve got an 26” Lilja barrel on order so I’ll be selling this barrel once I get it here.

 

[AstroGuy]

1. With rimfires I am a believer in leaving them fouled. When you get done shooting you can run a wet patch through then a couple dry patches and leave it at that. Its not a centerfire.

2. You could lap the chamber and bore staying away from the muzzle end just hitting it lightly. You may have a couple burrs in there causing problems.

3. Lastly if your not going to be switching barrels you can get rid of the set screw, use a bearing adhesive and set your headspace getting rid of the slop all in one. I typically use a gel for this. I have sleeved the tenons on some barrels turning them down then adding the sleeve and turned to correct dimension but I might try the gluing method first as that is how I install most rimfire barrels.

That is what I do, learned from a pretty good rimfire smith and he really loved working on CZ's. If you have access to a reamer you could also shorten the tenon, adjust the shoulder, rechamber and give it a whirl. All else fails buy a new barrel. If you have to hire everything done, buy a new barrel. Sounds like you have the equipment and knowledge so just do the work.

Good luck.

Thank you for this info! In my @1 I’ve noticed that when I get 75-100 rounds though it my groups open up so I always clean within that amount of rounds if I’m shooting scores. I just followed this through with this gun so I’ll give it a try with your idea.

Lapping, I’ve considered doing this to try and smooth out anything inside but I’ve never done this before so wasn’t sure how this is done. I’ve seen on YT they cast a lead lap so I don’t have access to making that so unless there is another method to do that I’m a bit leary to doing it. Then what compound are guys using as well???

Refit the barrel, I already do have a Lilja on order so no doubt this will be replaced but I would still like to get this barrel shooting as best as I can. For now I used a .001” shim around the tenon to take up the slop and that really snugged up the fit and torked the setscrews to 35ip to start. Honestly, don’t know how much if any difference it might make but at least I addressed this issue.

 

[243winxb]

22lr accuracy testing-

When testing different brands of 22lr ammo, the barrel will need cleaning, before the new ammo is tried.

Or fire 5 to 10 fouling shots of the new ammo, before shooting a group.

Bullet coatings/lubes dont all play well together.
Some bullets are made from pure lead, others us 2% antimony.

The scope cap is contacting the barrel. Should never be. Even when removed, the flex in the scope may be effected. Never rest hand on scope front, as scopes flex easier then one thinks.

I am sure you know this, just a reminder.

groups open up

 

[AstroGuy]

22lr accuracy testing-

When testing different brands of 22lr ammo, the barrel will need cleaning, before the new ammo is tried.

Or fire 5 to 10 fouling shots of the new ammo, before shooting a group.

Bullet coatings/lubes dont all play well together.
Some bullets are made from pure lead, others us 2% antimony.

The scope cap is contacting the barrel. Should never be. Even when removed, the flex in the scope may be effected. Never rest hand on scope front, as scopes flex easier then one thinks.

I am sure you know this, just a reminder.

Thank you for the reminders and check list! Yes I did use fouling shots before actually shooting the “new” group. Did this when I changed from SK to Eley.

I can see from the angle of the pix that it looks like the front cap is hitting the barrel, but it is not. This particular lens cover does not have the flip to open so it needs to be removed in order to shoot or use the optic.

 

[Allen R]

I have about 1200 rnds through the Bartlein barrel. About 500 or so in I started noticing a “galled” looking roughness to the bottom of the bore through out the length of the barrel not as prominent closer to the muzzle. I called Whidden and asked them about it. They see it all the time and as far as they can tell doesn’t affect accuracy and was told that accuracy seems to settle in later and can take up to several hundred rounds. From another source they said the priming compound has silica in it which would make sense because all the marks on the bottom of the bore. Totally different than what I was used to seeing in center fire. I “test” lotted this barrel myself from what I could get. Found a lot of SK Red that shoots acceptable at 50yds but not consistent much beyond. Found an Eley match lot that shoots a little better at 50 but way more consistent a longer ranges. As tried 2 box’s of Lapua Center X. One shot amazing the other terrible. Bad part about it I can’t get anymore of the one that shot really well. Oh the joys of .22 match ammo.

 

[AstroGuy]

I have about 1200 rnds through the Bartlein barrel. About 500 or so in I started noticing a “galled” looking roughness to the bottom of the bore through out the length of the barrel not as prominent closer to the muzzle. I called Whidden and asked them about it. They see it all the time and as far as they can tell doesn’t affect accuracy and was told that accuracy seems to settle in later and can take up to several hundred rounds. From another source they said the priming compound has silica in it which would make sense because all the marks on the bottom of the bore. Totally different than what I was used to seeing in center fire. I “test” lotted this barrel myself from what I could get. Found a lot of SK Red that shoots acceptable at 50yds but not consistent much beyond. Found an Eley match lot that shoots a little better at 50 but way more consistent a longer ranges. As tried 2 box’s of Lapua Center X. One shot amazing the other terrible. Bad part about it I can’t get anymore of the one that shot really well. Oh the joys of .22 match ammo.

Thank you for this info Allen, appreciate it! Ya I got about 500rds through this barrel now but it actually seems like the groups have gotten worse since I have shot the gun. Yes I have gone through and checked my tork settings etc… doesn’t seem to make any difference.

Interesting that you describe the same appearance inside my barrel. Galled is what it looks like to me as well.

At this point I may end up trying to lap the barrel just enough to take any burrs off but I need to research this procedure as I’ve not done it before and don’t have a way to make a lead lap for this barrel.

 

[CharlieNC]

Lapping yourself is likely to make it worse, and insure no help from CZ. If you're set on doing something use an abrasive such as JB or Iosso using a firm fitting swab. You never know what you will find (feel) during the process, such as lead buildup.

 

[AstroGuy]

Lapping yourself is likely to make it worse, and insure no help from CZ. If you're set on doing something use an abrasive such as JB or Iosso using a firm fitting swab. You never know what you will find (feel) during the process, such as lead buildup.

Thank you for the information Charlie! The JB cleaner is what I’m planning to give a try.

 

[dusterdave173]

Just contact the regional CZ rep in your area --I bet he will look at it and do something--That is how it is supposed to work--you go to messing with it that all goes out the window. I bet you can get the barrel replaced

 

[AstroGuy]

Thanks for the information Dave, I may go and see what can be done but I’ve already done some more work on it and it does seem as though it helped a little. In the end I’m just waiting for my barrel from Lilja and that will be my fix for this. Based on what I shot today at 50yds it fairly consistant 1moa as most of the groups I shot were right in the .500” range.

I did pick up a box of Federal standard because that was ammo that I didn’t try but as you can see at the right center the gun didn’t like it at all at 2.68”.

 

[MUP]

Here is what I shot yesterday after noon. I don’t have any Lapua on hand so no I haven’t other then I’ve heard that the SK yellow & Red box are manufactured on retired machinery from Lapua.
You’ll notice that I had 1 group that I shot 1 hole with Eley Match but after that I couldn’t get it to shoot close to that group again. All shot at 50yds.

Maybe I’m expecting to much from this gun then. I’ve got an 26” Lilja barrel on order so I’ll be selling this barrel once I get it here.

That group from "new lot red" looks really good to me!

 

[AstroGuy]

That group from "new lot red" looks really good to me!

Ya thats about the only one that was decent. There was a couple other groups that if you removed the flier the groups would be very good but I don’t remove fliers for these tests.

 

[Chilly807]

As soon as you mentioned that the leade was rough looking I placed a bet with myself that it would be a CZ barrel.

They're noted for hit or miss barrel quality. I've heard it said that 80% of their barrels are "average" for accuracy, with 10% more being "outstanding", and the remaining 10% being "poor"

The usual cause is dull chamber reamers pushed beyond their best service life or poor machining practices.

Yours falls between average and poor from what I can see. Typical CZ. I doubt they'll do much for you warranty-wise.

If they did replace the barrel, the one you get might be more of the same. Highly unlikely their warranty dept. has a supply of "good" barrels for customers that complain about the originals. It's hard to make money that way.

I've owned several CZ rifles, the only one I have left is a BRNO 2E. It's got a good bore and shoots well for a light barreled rifle.

There's not much you can do to make the barrel you have now shoot well. Lapping won't fix the poor machine job, it'll just make it smoother. Having said that, it might help a little. That smeared leade isn't going anywhere unless you cut the barrel off and re-chamber it properly.

A few years ago, the CZ forum on RFC had a lot of threads on making the rifles better, the general consensus was that a good aftermarket barrel was the best place to start.

As for the bottom of the bore looking rough, I believe it's caused by the "ground glass", for lack of a better term, that's used in rimfire priming compound. It falls to the bottom of the bore after each shot, then gets dragged along by successive shots, leaving tiny scratches in the steel. The bottom of my 1970 Anschutz 54 bore looks like it's been sandblasted. That rifle shoots very well with God knows how many rounds through it. I'm at least the 3rd owner.


I also have a Tikka T1x with about 8-9000 rounds through it that shows the beginning of the same phenomenon. Another good shooting rifle.

Other than the BRNO, which is no spring chicken either, I've given up on CZ as being too much of a gamble of getting a good shooter.