What twist for my 300 wsm?
- Thread starter shooter74
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LA50SHOOTER
Sworn To Protect The Constitution.
1-10" is plenty. - I've run 200 & 210 gr. Bergers through a 1-11" and I believe that a 1-10" will stabilize the 230 gr. Bergers.
- If your looking to shoot the 200 gr. new Sierra a 1-10" has been reported to work fine. The new 230 gr. Sierra will probably require a 1-9"
I don't feel that there is a lot to be gained even at ELR ranges by "over-spinning" bullets in any caliber. As long as you can achieve a 1.5 stability factor using Miller's formula or a Stability calculation app then you should be fine.
- If your looking to shoot the 200 gr. new Sierra a 1-10" has been reported to work fine. The new 230 gr. Sierra will probably require a 1-9"
I don't feel that there is a lot to be gained even at ELR ranges by "over-spinning" bullets in any caliber. As long as you can achieve a 1.5 stability factor using Miller's formula or a Stability calculation app then you should be fine.
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I can't believe this even a question. A 1-10 twist may work in hunting but it is obsolete in the long range game. I shoot a 1-8.5t on my 300WM.
They need to start making a 9t standard for these longer range .30 cal magnums.
New bullets are longer with higher BCs that need a FASTER TWIST to stabilize them. Just look at the new A-Tips.
JMO
They need to start making a 9t standard for these longer range .30 cal magnums.
New bullets are longer with higher BCs that need a FASTER TWIST to stabilize them. Just look at the new A-Tips.
JMO
LA50SHOOTER
Sworn To Protect The Constitution.
I'm simply stating My experience regarding the 300 WSM and twist rates as I have 4 rifles chambered in this caliber & 3 are comp. guns.
"New A-Tips" are not even on the market yet and most all manufacturer lean to the side of caution when publishing required twist rates.
The 230 gr. Sierra is a prime example of this. - Sierra states 1-8" and there have been some reports back where a 1-9" twist shot them quite accurately. - What each individual barrel will stabilize is unique unto it. I've seen a 1-10" twist stabilize both 240gr. and the old 250's in 30 cal. and another 1-10 couldn't do it and both were pretty much equal as far as length, & velocity figures went.
And the sport in itself chosen dictates what the accuracy criteria is. - Big difference in shooting a 10 shot group at 1000 yds and banging a steel plate.
"New A-Tips" are not even on the market yet and most all manufacturer lean to the side of caution when publishing required twist rates.
The 230 gr. Sierra is a prime example of this. - Sierra states 1-8" and there have been some reports back where a 1-9" twist shot them quite accurately. - What each individual barrel will stabilize is unique unto it. I've seen a 1-10" twist stabilize both 240gr. and the old 250's in 30 cal. and another 1-10 couldn't do it and both were pretty much equal as far as length, & velocity figures went.
And the sport in itself chosen dictates what the accuracy criteria is. - Big difference in shooting a 10 shot group at 1000 yds and banging a steel plate.
1-10 is perfectly fine. I’ve had a half dozen fclass barrels in them, shooting 230’s and 215’s. Never have had a stabilization problem. I tried one 1-9 and it had a noticeable more amount of torque
I have shot many great targets and won aggregates with an 11 twist and 210 Bergers. Never saw a difference between a 10 or 11 twist at 1000 yards. In fact some of my 11 twists were more accurate. This is in BR where good 10 shot groups are needed to win. Matt
How would you guys know if you have nothing to compare it to(side by side)??? You have a 10 twist so you shoot it... you don't know if your groups would have been better with a faster twist.
A fellow shooter and friend was shooting 225s next to me out 1824 and he couldn't do it. His rounds were hitting all over. My 8.5t did much better so I had him switch with me (I was shooting 225s very close to the same speed) and he was able to hit the 20x40 in. target several times and I had a hard time but managed one hit it once out of his 10t.
And yes, shooting a group at 1k is much different than ringing steel at a mile and further.
Ask the man himself- Ask Litz what he thinks. Also, ask Todd Hodnett what he uses.... I mean he only trains SOF snipers in long range and high angle shooting. Or if you want to shoot BR it seems you are talking to right guys. Good luck either way.
Deciding the ideal twist rate for a rifle is a very difficult question to answer as there are so many variables to consider.
Ideally the smallest groups will come with the minimum gyroscopic stability however gyroscopic stability is not the only problem. There is also dynamic stability to consider particularly for long range shooting. In this case a faster twist rate may be better but it is not guaranteed, higher spin rates can themselves lead to dynamic stability problems. But even the bullet instability type can be significant, dynamic nutational instability having less effect than dynamic precession instability.
The design of the bullet will be another variable, some bullets will require more twist than others and it is not just a function of bullet length and weight. The ideal twist rate for one design of bullet may not work at all for another even if they are the same length and weight with the same fit in the barrel.
Where you do most of your shooting will have an effect. If you shoot at sea level in sub zero temperatures you will generally need a higher twist rate than if you shoot in 80 degrees at 3000ft. What is the ideal twist rate for one shooter may not work at all for another due entirely to where they do most of their shooting.
Finally there is what happens to the bullet as it leaves the rifle. If the gun/bullet/shooter combination you have gives a perfect launch to the bullet with zero or close to zero initial yaw and yaw rate then you will get away with a lower twist rate. If the bullet has a higher yaw or yaw rate then you may want a higher twist rate to damp out any yaw quickly and reduce group size.
So in answer to the original question if you are an expert shooter normally shooting in warm temperatures at higher altitudes then go for a lower twist rate. If you are an average shooter shooting at sea level in colder temperatures you may well benefit from using a higher twist rate.
Ideally the smallest groups will come with the minimum gyroscopic stability however gyroscopic stability is not the only problem. There is also dynamic stability to consider particularly for long range shooting. In this case a faster twist rate may be better but it is not guaranteed, higher spin rates can themselves lead to dynamic stability problems. But even the bullet instability type can be significant, dynamic nutational instability having less effect than dynamic precession instability.
The design of the bullet will be another variable, some bullets will require more twist than others and it is not just a function of bullet length and weight. The ideal twist rate for one design of bullet may not work at all for another even if they are the same length and weight with the same fit in the barrel.
Where you do most of your shooting will have an effect. If you shoot at sea level in sub zero temperatures you will generally need a higher twist rate than if you shoot in 80 degrees at 3000ft. What is the ideal twist rate for one shooter may not work at all for another due entirely to where they do most of their shooting.
Finally there is what happens to the bullet as it leaves the rifle. If the gun/bullet/shooter combination you have gives a perfect launch to the bullet with zero or close to zero initial yaw and yaw rate then you will get away with a lower twist rate. If the bullet has a higher yaw or yaw rate then you may want a higher twist rate to damp out any yaw quickly and reduce group size.
So in answer to the original question if you are an expert shooter normally shooting in warm temperatures at higher altitudes then go for a lower twist rate. If you are an average shooter shooting at sea level in colder temperatures you may well benefit from using a higher twist rate.
LA50SHOOTER
Sworn To Protect The Constitution.
So, "Student" - By your post None of us have tested anything, we are all ignorant and therefore you are the "Teacher" who is going to scold us and talk down to us and impart your wisdom upon us ???
The 300 WSM is NOT a competitive ELR cartridge (1760 yds and beyond), This was proven at E2K in Montana in August 2018 when we shot for group and score at 2000 yards in 3 different classes of competition (Unlimited off a bench, ELR from prone using Bi-Pods, and 18 Lb. Hunter-class using Bi-pods).
You go on ahead with what you think works for you, I'm done here in this thread and IMO you've not added a whole lot of useful dialog to the thread, there are multiple posts by some very experienced shooters and reloaders who have posted and I look for what I call "the common denominator" of exactly what their inputs are, and it ISN'T a 1-8.5" twist in the 300WSM.
- Ron -
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I’ll comment, not to ruffle the feathers, but to point out that this is the ELR section. I would suggest that 1000 yards is not ELR for a 300wsm. In shooting ELR with a round as small as the 300, you need all the help you can get. To me that means shooting really high bc solids to get maximum bc to help combat the wind way out there. If you look i to the big 30 cal solids, some of the are needing a 1-8” This is something to consider when you make you’re decision.
I just had Krieger make a 1-8, 338 barrel thinking I’d be good for any of the solids but the badlands starts testing an even heavier bullet that needs a 1-7...
I just had Krieger make a 1-8, 338 barrel thinking I’d be good for any of the solids but the badlands starts testing an even heavier bullet that needs a 1-7...
XTR
F-TR obssessed shooting junkie
If one goes and reads what Mr. Litz actually has written about twist rate you will find that what he says is that you can achieve precision with twists that result in an SG less than 1.5 but that you lose a percentage of your intrinsic BC due to wobble or the bullet not presenting it's minimum profile forward, and that higher twist rates can lower the precision.
Shooting to 1000ish a 1:10 will certainly stabilize up to a 215H. I believe that when Bryan Litz won the F-TR FCNC shooting 215s from a 308Win he used a 1:10.
edit: and @shooter74 doesn't comment on his intended use.
Shooting to 1000ish a 1:10 will certainly stabilize up to a 215H. I believe that when Bryan Litz won the F-TR FCNC shooting 215s from a 308Win he used a 1:10.
edit: and @shooter74 doesn't comment on his intended use.
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Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
Also don't forget that if a bullet is gyroscopically stable when it exits the bore, it will only be more so farther downrange, because the linear velocity of the bullet decreases much, much faster than its rotational velocity.
I've been shooting the 200.20X bullet out of 11.0-twist barrels for some time. According to Berger's Twist Rate Calculator, I'm giving up ~4% of the intrinsic BC and should be using a minimum of 10.3-twist. Nonetheless, I can assure you they shoot just fine out of the 11-twist barrels.
I've been shooting the 200.20X bullet out of 11.0-twist barrels for some time. According to Berger's Twist Rate Calculator, I'm giving up ~4% of the intrinsic BC and should be using a minimum of 10.3-twist. Nonetheless, I can assure you they shoot just fine out of the 11-twist barrels.
Boatschool02
Silver $$ Contributor
Same experience.
20x bullets from an 11T Krieger at ZERO feet altitude in Imperial Valley.
Given all the hype over "sufficient twist" I went out expecting to see sideways bullet holes in the target.
Nope.
Technically giving up some BC, but the raw accuracy was hard to dispute.
The OP never said extended longrange. I wouldn't even consider a 300 WSM for ELR. It just doesn't have enough speed or bullet weight.
The solids are a totally different animal and needs much faster twists and even different throats. Matt
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