OK so I am putting together a Mid range/backup Long range FTR rifle chambered in 223 rem. I plan on shooting the 90gr SMKs and the 90gr Berger VLDs (if they every become available again). Berger recommends a 1-6 twist for the 90gr VLD and sierra recommends a 1-6.5 twist for the SMK. I was planning on usinga 1-6 twist barrel but it seems that most guys are using a 1-7 and are happy with it. Id hate to spend $300 on a barrel and several hundred on the chambering to find out that a 1-6 twist blows bullets up, or sends them around corners or something. So, does anyone have any experience using a 1-6 twist with either the 90gr Berger VLD or the 90gr SMK? And since were talking about barrels, what length. My first impression was to go with a 28" thinking that a 223 doesn't have that much powder so may not need that long of a barrel but I wouldn't mind going with a 30" either. Again any experience would be appreciated.
What twist barrel for 223 rem and 90gr VLDs
- Thread starter mao0720
- Start date
I can't speak for the Berger 90s since they're not available as far as I can tell. But I've tried the Sierra SMK 90's with 7 different powders and two different primers in my 26" Shilen 1:7 Select Match barrel without (yet) finding Nirvana. Unfortunately, they are not as accurate as I want/need and they're inconsistent as well. In other words, I can get a couple of sub 1/2 MOA five-shot groups at 100 yards right after shooting a nearly 1 MOA group. Same-day testing of Berger VLD 80gr bullets show better accuracy and consistency, typically producing a string of 6 or 8 five-shot groups all below 1/2 MOA.
I'd really like to use the 90s for 600 yd F/TR matches. My last test at pretty scary charge weights showed a couple of sub 1/4 MOA five-shot groups with the SMK 90's. Although there weren't any pressure signs except at the highest load, the best load was still WAY above the published max. I used Vihtavuori N-540 with Moly coated bullets, so that helps reduce maximum pressure a little bit, at least in theory. The best load MV was 2960 fps. That's pretty toasty. Frankly I don't like that sort of load for competition where a slight temperature increase compared with my testing data might prove to be the "wrong mistake" as we say.
Perhaps a 1:7 twist barrel longer than my 26" barrel would be good for the SMK 90's. Those reporting good results with the SMK 90's in 1:7 twist barrels seem to by launching them very near 2900 fps, so perhaps a 1:6.5 might be a better choice, but I can't say for sure.
The fact that Berger 80s with identical preparation shot from the same gun on the same day outperform the SMK 90s indicates that I might not be spinning the SMK 90s fast enough from my gun. That's further borne out by the improved precision of the SMK 90s when I drive them at MVs over 2900 fps. That makes me wince though and I don't intend to make a practice of it.
I'd really like to use the 90s for 600 yd F/TR matches. My last test at pretty scary charge weights showed a couple of sub 1/4 MOA five-shot groups with the SMK 90's. Although there weren't any pressure signs except at the highest load, the best load was still WAY above the published max. I used Vihtavuori N-540 with Moly coated bullets, so that helps reduce maximum pressure a little bit, at least in theory. The best load MV was 2960 fps. That's pretty toasty. Frankly I don't like that sort of load for competition where a slight temperature increase compared with my testing data might prove to be the "wrong mistake" as we say.
Perhaps a 1:7 twist barrel longer than my 26" barrel would be good for the SMK 90's. Those reporting good results with the SMK 90's in 1:7 twist barrels seem to by launching them very near 2900 fps, so perhaps a 1:6.5 might be a better choice, but I can't say for sure.
The fact that Berger 80s with identical preparation shot from the same gun on the same day outperform the SMK 90s indicates that I might not be spinning the SMK 90s fast enough from my gun. That's further borne out by the improved precision of the SMK 90s when I drive them at MVs over 2900 fps. That makes me wince though and I don't intend to make a practice of it.
When I used 223/90 regularly in FTR at national and international levels, it was before the Sg minimum recommendation of 1.5 appeared and 1/7" was in effect optimal at a bit over 1.4. At 2,910 fps or thereabouts with both JLK and Berger VLDs (lightly pointed), they performed very well indeed at 1,000 yards and if anything needed slightly less elevation and windage than the Litz / Berger programs predict.
In June 2011, the 90gn Berger version performed well enough to win a 1,000 yard individual match in the Scottish Long-Range Championship at Blair Atholl against opponents which included most of the then US FTR team shooting 308/155.5s who had joined us after competing against the Republic of Ireland in the inaugural revived Creedmoor Match at the then new Tullamore Ranges.
Before the weekend matches (which concluded with a Monday morning Scotland v USA FTR team match), we had Friday as a practice day and had a brief session late afternoon at '1,200' yards (actually a true 1,224 yards). String shooting on an unusually calm day for Blair, I kept 9 out of 10 shots in 2-MOA (the four-ring on the modified Palma International F-Class target) and in under 1-MOA elevation. The temperature was high for the Scottish Highlands at around 75F and the range is around 1,000 ft ASL, but the weather conditions were high-pressure anti-cyclonic. So, this was no Raton 90F/8,000 ft altitude type situation, albeit ballistically better than we often see in the UK. I had no concerns about 7-inch twist barrels after that day.
Later I shot the 90gn Berger LRBT out of a 1/7.5" twist Bartlein 26-inch medium Palma barrel at a mild 2,550 fps on a rebarrelled but otherwise out of the box Savage RBLP Model LRPV and it was a dream clubman's combination at 300-600 yards in all weather / atmospheric conditions. I intended to try it at 800 yards too, but it's been rebuilt with a 1/7" twist barrel in a different stock and with a different PT&G chamber and freebore before I got the chance - yet to be run in and tested.
In June 2011, the 90gn Berger version performed well enough to win a 1,000 yard individual match in the Scottish Long-Range Championship at Blair Atholl against opponents which included most of the then US FTR team shooting 308/155.5s who had joined us after competing against the Republic of Ireland in the inaugural revived Creedmoor Match at the then new Tullamore Ranges.
Before the weekend matches (which concluded with a Monday morning Scotland v USA FTR team match), we had Friday as a practice day and had a brief session late afternoon at '1,200' yards (actually a true 1,224 yards). String shooting on an unusually calm day for Blair, I kept 9 out of 10 shots in 2-MOA (the four-ring on the modified Palma International F-Class target) and in under 1-MOA elevation. The temperature was high for the Scottish Highlands at around 75F and the range is around 1,000 ft ASL, but the weather conditions were high-pressure anti-cyclonic. So, this was no Raton 90F/8,000 ft altitude type situation, albeit ballistically better than we often see in the UK. I had no concerns about 7-inch twist barrels after that day.
Later I shot the 90gn Berger LRBT out of a 1/7.5" twist Bartlein 26-inch medium Palma barrel at a mild 2,550 fps on a rebarrelled but otherwise out of the box Savage RBLP Model LRPV and it was a dream clubman's combination at 300-600 yards in all weather / atmospheric conditions. I intended to try it at 800 yards too, but it's been rebuilt with a 1/7" twist barrel in a different stock and with a different PT&G chamber and freebore before I got the chance - yet to be run in and tested.
I currently Use a Bartlein 32" 1-6.7 twist with no issues, Last recorded group with the 90VLD was .439 at 100yards 5 shots. I'm going to test the 90SMK and see how they do, but never plan on using them for big matches.
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Thanks everyone for your input. To help provide some more info, I shoot primarily at 2 ranges for matches. The one is at 600ft ASL, cool and damp climate, and the other at about 1000ft ALS, warm and dry climate. Many of the early and late season matches I shoot in spring and fall tend to be pretty cool, between 40 and 50 degrees F. I have run the numbers through bergers twist rate calculator, and with the berger vld Im leaving 5% bc on the table if I use a 1-7 twist. I feel ok running the bergers through a 1-6 twist, plenty stable and a good reputation for holding together. The sierras though, since they don't require as fast of a twist, and since they used to have issues coming apart at higher velocities (something Sierra says they have fixed), I am a bit concerned about using a 1-6 twist. The barrel MFG that I was going to order from only does a 6 groove 1-6 twist, or a 5 or 6 groove 1-7 twist, no 6.5 twist. Id like to take full advantage of the BC of either bullet and I don't want to leave even 3-5% on the table so im leaning towards a 1-6 twist barrel, but I am nervous that I cant find anyone who has used a 1-6 twist with the 90gr bergers and sierras, and I nervous that I may blow bullets up or have other issues. More input is always welcome!
Amen, To what Greg said, Bartlein has done right by me. and they have no problem doing any twist you require.
Were you comfortable with the charge weight required to shoot these 90gr bullets above 2900fps or did you put on your flak jacket first? I'm guessing you were above published recommended maximum charge weight. Am I right?
Are you willing to reveal your powder type, primer type, charge weight, and barrel length?
I cant speak for Mozella, but for my pet load I use 24.3grns Varget, but i have a long freebore .215 and I jump them .20 off the lands. I know that there are other people who are pushing them a little more , but once you get into the 2900 range you will see that your brass life goes down big time. My barrel is a Bartlein 32" Heavy Palma 1-6.7 Twist and i use CCIBR-4 primers.
XTR
F-TR obssessed shooting junkie
Can you find me a shooter on the line in an F class match that is not above the published maximum charge weights?
I believe that Laurie has posted in the past that he got his best velocities with Rx15, but that even in Sunny olde England it was too temperature sensitive.
2,910 fps? That was in a 31-inch Trueflite with a very long freebore minimum-SAAMI spec chamber. 2.7" COAL with the bullet around 15 thou' into the lands. Lapua Match brass, PMC SRM primer (Russian), 25.2gn Re15. Brass with a light (clean-up) neck-turn, bullets BTO batched, every round with near identical case-head to ogive comparator reading to within 0.001", most nil variance and all charges within + or - 0.02gn (0.02 = a single kernel of Re15) using lab scales. Fairly light neck tension. (All required to get reasonable ES spreads, ideally in single figures which is difficult on the 223.)
Pressures were hot but not 'flak jacket' and cases were either discarded after 4 firings or more commonly transferred to the Savage LRPV with the lower pressure load for short / mid-range comps and did a few more firings. Apart from a couple of over-pressure development casualties, I never threw out a case for a slack primer pocket in over 2,500 rounds fired. The reason for 4, max 5, firings was that I didn't have access to annealing at the time and ES values would start to climb on 5th and more loadings even with minimal sizing using a bushing die and mandrel type Sinclair expander.
The 'pressure problem' came from the use of a standard Savage 12 PTA action without any firing pin bushing. At 25.2gn, there was fair bit of primer extrusion into the bolt face and if the weather got too hot, 1 round, sometimes a couple, per box of 50 would blank and blow a small brass disk back into the bolt head. It was essential to get that out before taking the next shot as it would either risk a light strike or just as bad see the disk ejected into the chamber. I once lost a potential perfect score from a blanked primer and the disk getting into the leade before taking the last shot giving me a high-left flier. After a while I discovered that removing the bolt and dropping the firing pin would almost always eject the disk which would be in the bolt-face pin aperture - but a break in concentration, a struggle to manually re-cock the bolt and always a worry. Nobody here offered a Gre-Tan type bushing job at the time, and thanks to ITAR, the PT&G improved bolt-head was virtually impossible to have exported to the UK.
A friend with an RPA that didn't suffer this issue ran his 223 at rather hotter (VarGet) loads than my Re15 ones without trouble other than a two or three firing case life. In my rifle with the Savage bolt / primer issue, max VarGet was around 24.5gn with the 90gn VLD at 2,850-2,860 fps but didn't perform as well. Before the barrel got a bit worn after 1,500 rounds or so, I should mention that it would produce 0.2-0.4" 5-shot groups at 100 yards, normally under a third inch. There was a lot of scepticism here about 223 at 1,000 and as there was a UKBRA 1,000 yard BR comp shortly after the rifle was built and I'd just got 90gn loads worked up I thought I'd see how it would perform in this against the usual collection of 'Light Guns' in 6.5 and 7mm. Group 1 (of four by 5 rounds) was a disaster as I tried to work the bolt and Accutrigger too roughly to get fast shooting and kept setting the safety system off with misfires. It ended up at 12 or 13 inches. After that, shooting rather (much) slower than ideal, I had three single figure groups, one between 5 and 6" and the smallest group of around 30 competitors at 4.88 something inches. All used Re15, but two groups used the VLD and two the 90gn LRBT. The latter couldn't be loaded as hot as the VLD, needing a half grain less powder and losing 50 fps.
At that time, this budget rifle (secondhand PTA, ex-demo McRees Precision stock, and True-Flite barrel which was then considerably cheaper than a Krieger or Bartlein, no bedding just bolt-in, Versa-Pod folding tactical bipod) was fully competitive with the best of the 308s in GB national FTR and was superior to any 155gn 308 load at that time. Since then, 223 has more or less stood still and new bullets, Palma brass and some clever use of powders has made 308 a lot more competitive.
I do have a new hope though - Swiss Nitrochemie powders as used in Alliant Re17 and Re33 with the very advanced patented E.I. deterrent infusion method offer vey high velocities at reduced peak pressures. Reload Swiss RS52 has the same quoted burning rate as Re15, is less temperature sensitive and gives considerably higher MVs than H4895, VarGet, or Re15 in 308, also looking good in 6.5X47 and I'm about to try it vice VarGet in 6BR with 105-108s. My original 223 on its second barrel now 28-inches but with the super-freebore chamber gave around 2,840 fps with VarGet and once the weather improves, I'll use RS52 in it. I did work up to my old Re15 load of 25.2gn with a sample batch from the importer before its launch but ran out there. I can't remember the MV off the top, but it was promising and it's obvious it'll take another 0.3, maybe even 0.5gn to get back up into the 2,900s. (I did wonder if Re16 currently launched at SHOT is RS52, but it's quoted as slightly faster burning than 4350 which seems too fast for this Swiss powder.) A UK correspondent on 223 bought a long-freebore job that had been built by Mik Maksimovic (The Dolphin Gun Co.) secondhand and he found he could get the 90gn VLD to the high 2,900s with RS52 from 30inches, but cut charges back to reduce MVs to the 2,900 fps level which he also found to provide a sweet spot. There's no free lunches, so I don't expect great barrel life from this wonder powder.
Primers are crucial in these hot 223 loads not only for cup strength but for brisance. I never found anything as good as the old Russian PMC SRM and they've not been available here for some years under any name. CCI-450 was not quite as good but does provide a second string. CCI-BR4 was tough, but increased pressures, velocities, ES values and group sizes in my old 31-inch barrel / L-R load - by a LOT (35-40 fps) and reducing the charge to bring it back down to 2,900 didn't reduce groups and ES unfortunately.
I also have a second PTA based 223 chambered with PT&G's 0.167" FB '223 ISSF' reamer in an Eliseo S1 chassis stock (likely the onbly example in the UK). That has still to be run in. It uses my original TrueFlite barrel set back and rechambered, and I've yet to see how it'll perform. I hope it'll shoot the 80.5gn Berger BT Fullbore well. The very long FB chambers only shoot 90s well. I've had confirmation from others who went down this route.
Pressures were hot but not 'flak jacket' and cases were either discarded after 4 firings or more commonly transferred to the Savage LRPV with the lower pressure load for short / mid-range comps and did a few more firings. Apart from a couple of over-pressure development casualties, I never threw out a case for a slack primer pocket in over 2,500 rounds fired. The reason for 4, max 5, firings was that I didn't have access to annealing at the time and ES values would start to climb on 5th and more loadings even with minimal sizing using a bushing die and mandrel type Sinclair expander.
The 'pressure problem' came from the use of a standard Savage 12 PTA action without any firing pin bushing. At 25.2gn, there was fair bit of primer extrusion into the bolt face and if the weather got too hot, 1 round, sometimes a couple, per box of 50 would blank and blow a small brass disk back into the bolt head. It was essential to get that out before taking the next shot as it would either risk a light strike or just as bad see the disk ejected into the chamber. I once lost a potential perfect score from a blanked primer and the disk getting into the leade before taking the last shot giving me a high-left flier. After a while I discovered that removing the bolt and dropping the firing pin would almost always eject the disk which would be in the bolt-face pin aperture - but a break in concentration, a struggle to manually re-cock the bolt and always a worry. Nobody here offered a Gre-Tan type bushing job at the time, and thanks to ITAR, the PT&G improved bolt-head was virtually impossible to have exported to the UK.
A friend with an RPA that didn't suffer this issue ran his 223 at rather hotter (VarGet) loads than my Re15 ones without trouble other than a two or three firing case life. In my rifle with the Savage bolt / primer issue, max VarGet was around 24.5gn with the 90gn VLD at 2,850-2,860 fps but didn't perform as well. Before the barrel got a bit worn after 1,500 rounds or so, I should mention that it would produce 0.2-0.4" 5-shot groups at 100 yards, normally under a third inch. There was a lot of scepticism here about 223 at 1,000 and as there was a UKBRA 1,000 yard BR comp shortly after the rifle was built and I'd just got 90gn loads worked up I thought I'd see how it would perform in this against the usual collection of 'Light Guns' in 6.5 and 7mm. Group 1 (of four by 5 rounds) was a disaster as I tried to work the bolt and Accutrigger too roughly to get fast shooting and kept setting the safety system off with misfires. It ended up at 12 or 13 inches. After that, shooting rather (much) slower than ideal, I had three single figure groups, one between 5 and 6" and the smallest group of around 30 competitors at 4.88 something inches. All used Re15, but two groups used the VLD and two the 90gn LRBT. The latter couldn't be loaded as hot as the VLD, needing a half grain less powder and losing 50 fps.
At that time, this budget rifle (secondhand PTA, ex-demo McRees Precision stock, and True-Flite barrel which was then considerably cheaper than a Krieger or Bartlein, no bedding just bolt-in, Versa-Pod folding tactical bipod) was fully competitive with the best of the 308s in GB national FTR and was superior to any 155gn 308 load at that time. Since then, 223 has more or less stood still and new bullets, Palma brass and some clever use of powders has made 308 a lot more competitive.
I do have a new hope though - Swiss Nitrochemie powders as used in Alliant Re17 and Re33 with the very advanced patented E.I. deterrent infusion method offer vey high velocities at reduced peak pressures. Reload Swiss RS52 has the same quoted burning rate as Re15, is less temperature sensitive and gives considerably higher MVs than H4895, VarGet, or Re15 in 308, also looking good in 6.5X47 and I'm about to try it vice VarGet in 6BR with 105-108s. My original 223 on its second barrel now 28-inches but with the super-freebore chamber gave around 2,840 fps with VarGet and once the weather improves, I'll use RS52 in it. I did work up to my old Re15 load of 25.2gn with a sample batch from the importer before its launch but ran out there. I can't remember the MV off the top, but it was promising and it's obvious it'll take another 0.3, maybe even 0.5gn to get back up into the 2,900s. (I did wonder if Re16 currently launched at SHOT is RS52, but it's quoted as slightly faster burning than 4350 which seems too fast for this Swiss powder.) A UK correspondent on 223 bought a long-freebore job that had been built by Mik Maksimovic (The Dolphin Gun Co.) secondhand and he found he could get the 90gn VLD to the high 2,900s with RS52 from 30inches, but cut charges back to reduce MVs to the 2,900 fps level which he also found to provide a sweet spot. There's no free lunches, so I don't expect great barrel life from this wonder powder.
Primers are crucial in these hot 223 loads not only for cup strength but for brisance. I never found anything as good as the old Russian PMC SRM and they've not been available here for some years under any name. CCI-450 was not quite as good but does provide a second string. CCI-BR4 was tough, but increased pressures, velocities, ES values and group sizes in my old 31-inch barrel / L-R load - by a LOT (35-40 fps) and reducing the charge to bring it back down to 2,900 didn't reduce groups and ES unfortunately.
I also have a second PTA based 223 chambered with PT&G's 0.167" FB '223 ISSF' reamer in an Eliseo S1 chassis stock (likely the onbly example in the UK). That has still to be run in. It uses my original TrueFlite barrel set back and rechambered, and I've yet to see how it'll perform. I hope it'll shoot the 80.5gn Berger BT Fullbore well. The very long FB chambers only shoot 90s well. I've had confirmation from others who went down this route.
1911mag
Gold $$ Contributor
Bartlien 1:7 30"' barrel works fine with Berger 90vl
I'm curious to see how the 1 in 6 twist recommendation works out. Seems the increase in pressure might offset some of the gain in b.c.
My interest in this is mostly academic. I'm primarily a varmint hunter and the heavy amaxes do everything I need the 223 to do.
My interest in this is mostly academic. I'm primarily a varmint hunter and the heavy amaxes do everything I need the 223 to do.
I have a 7 twist barrel that I'll be trying these 90s in.
I'm wondering, do Berger 90
Vlds like jump or jam? I understand every gun is different but usually there is a trend with all bullets?
Your help is appreciated.
I'm wondering, do Berger 90
Vlds like jump or jam? I understand every gun is different but usually there is a trend with all bullets?
Your help is appreciated.
Thanks for the link, I have read it before but I was seeing if there was a trend with 90s
XTR
F-TR obssessed shooting junkie
There is a lot of advice out there to jam them 10 to 15, That said I know Greg has stated he has good results jumping 10. Personally, my best has been jammed 10.
Thing is if you don't try to over rev the things and keep the load sane it won't matter which just test both ways and see what works.
The recipe that works for almost everyone is:
PTG reamer, .169 freebore <- <-
Varget, 24.5 grains (give or take 0.2)
Brass you like
Weigh charges to high precision (not sure it matters, but we all do it)
about .002 neck tension
1:7 twist
28" minimum barrel, 30" preferable (mine is a 28)
The above recipe should have you in the range of 2800 to 2830 depending on barrel.
Greg (gstaylorg) uses H4895 to good effect, his load is somewhat lighter with the faster powder (like 22.* range I think) with similar velocity.
Follow the recipe and it will make bread, deviate and you may find a wonderful load... my experience however, has been the opposite.
Have you guys tried H380 or H414 ? Apparently they should give same velocity with less pressure, according to Quickload anyway.
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