What is the best way to seat bullet to the "Lands"

[Jim Buck]

It's been years since I reloaded and getting back into it, but I never seated bullets just off the lands.

Is there a good easy way to accomplish this?

 

[minnesota]

Their are many tools made by different manufacturers. The one I have was made by stoney point, but Hornady bought them out. It is called the overall length gauge, and you can get the bullet comparator for it also because it is said that it is more accurate than measuring the tip of the bullet. If you want you can go on their web sight and find out more info.

 

[CanusLatransSnpr]

Welcome Jim! Minnesotas right! Get yourself a Hornady OAL gauge, with modified case for whatever cartridge/s your shooting! When you order that, get yourself a Sinclair comparator body and bullet comparators for whatever diameter bullets your shooting also! These tools and a good set of digital calipers, you will be well on your way!

Mike

 

[necchi]

This is far from exact but with repeated try's and several measurements you'll get an idea. The key is to pinch the neck for good tension.
The flaw is the bullet can "stick" in the lands and draw out of the case as the shel is extracted and give an incorrect measurement.
Once you think your close, make a dummy round and "smoke" the bullet, load and look for marks of the lands.

For what it's worth, I've got the hornady tools the guy's are talking about because I wanted to be sure.

 

[Jim Buck]

Sounds like the gauge may be the way to go. I had someone telling me to start with bullet seting high, loading cartridge looking for marks, and lower bullet depth until no marks are shown. I have the calipers and have just been going with stated OAL for now.

 

[thefitter]

Thing is the Hornady tool is anything but exact. Do it 6 times and you can get 6 different measurements. I did it 10 times and averaged. But I'm still not thrilled with the process. But it's just a guideline to me anyway.

Disclaimer- I'm a rookie myself.

 

[minnesota]

Thing is the Hornady tool is anything but exact. Do it 6 times and you can get 6 different measurements. I did it 10 times and averaged. But I'm still not thrilled with the process. But it's just a guideline to me anyway.

Disclaimer- I'm a rookie myself.

That is what you will find because the bullet does not have any neck tension and the cartridge is to under sami specs so it can be used in any gun. the bullet may not be lining up with the center of the bore. The more you do it, the better you will get at it.
If you had a cartridge that was blown out to your chamber made into a modified case, and possibly a little more tension. the better the bullet will align with the chamber and the quicker you will get the dimensions needed. As with some devises for this purpose, you need to do a little tinkering, fine tuning, whatever you want to call it.

 

[GermanS1]

Mike, here's a short article on the topic, focused on the Hornady(formely Stoney Point) tool.

http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2009/10/reloading-seating-depth.html

It's worth the effort and will pay off in better accuracy.

 

[6BRinNZ]

Hi German,

do you recommend .020 jump and .015 jam as its typically what works for these designs for you?

One reason I ask is - I used to struggle with getting precise to the land measurements, until I read your article. After reading you article (some time ago) I came away with - find the "at land" measurement this might be +- .002" i.e. a .004" spread. Then load with a jump or jam starting point that is significantly off this measurement ...i.e. I don't care if it is .025 off or .025 in, thats my starting point...just so long as its far enough away to a./ allow adjustment without touching the lands b./ isnt starting by touching the lands.

So I'm wondering if I only got part of your point?

Thanks

 

[GermanS1]

I think you got the point perfectly - enough jump or jam to avoid having small bullet variances be a significant factor. The numbers I use are just my standards, as much from habit as anything else.

 

[RonAKA]

I use the split case method, as necchi has described. I was all set to buy the Hornady tool, but after a good discussion in another forum, I backed away from it. A number have bought the tool, and stopped using it, returning to the split case.

One advantage of the split case is that you can take a fired case from your own gun, and do a partial neck size only on it. The shoulder/body will be left untouched and with about 0.001 clearance. The Hornady tool uses a dummy cartridge that does not necessarily fit your chamber well, as it has to fit any chamber it is put into. Some users also report that it is finicky to use and no faster than a split case.

I've found there is a bit of a trick in using the split case, and also a "make sure" you do this. The trick is to seat the bullet just slightly long once you get close to where you think you have a to the lands position. If the bullet needs only to be pushed back slightly there is less chance it will hang in the lands and pull out when you lift the bolt.

The other is a "must do". Once you have an COAL for the touch lands position, you have to appreciate it is only good for that specific bullet only. That bullet has to be used to set your seating die. The reason is that nose lengths differ from bullet to bullet in the same box. You are setting a consistent the to the lands (plus some for jam, and minus some for jump), not a consistent COAL. COAL will vary from bullet to bullet.

Also for the same reasons others have mentioned, I avoid the touching the lands position.

 

[jo191145]

Germans article is spot on.
Three things I know of that can give faulty readings with the Hornady guage.
The user
The user
The user ;D ;D

Beyond that he covered the bases well.

Used properly it will give you a consistent distance to the lands.
Thats all its designed to do. From there some simple math and seating depth tests is all thats required.
The biggest problem is reloaders using too much muscle. Its not designed to show you rifling marks twice as long as wide ;D Funny cocept but I think it happens more than shooters care to admit. Use it in such a fashion and I'll quarentee you it'll never give consistent readings again if its still in one piece.
Which leads me to this tip: If your going to be so gracious as to lend this tool out just save the wait and order a new one for yourself that day ;D

The other issue is case fit to chamber. They can require modification.
I've found the looser the bullet fits in the neck (within reason) the better they work. Let the lands center the bullet not the case guage.YMMV

 

[Jim Buck]

Can someone tell me the spilit case method? I can only assume doing this, it seats itself in the cartridges using this method and you seat it a little deeper?

 

[1shot]

I will try and add to replies from several other members that have replied to this thread. I also have used the Hornady gauge. I have access to a lathe and tap, so making a test case from a piece of brass fired from that rifle is much less of a hassle for me than it is for some. I also use and expander mandrel to get the inside diameter of the case just tight enough to hold the bullet, but loose enough for it to move with slight pressure. Also, I use a black “Sharpie” to color all the way around the ogive of the bullet. This stuff is easily removed with a quick spray of brake cleaner on a rag, then wiping it clean. A different way of doing it is to seat the bullet very deep in the case, mark it with a sharpie, insert it into the chamber then push the rod on the Hornady gauge until the bullet stops. Very gently remove the cartridge and measure the distance between the mark you just made and the new length from the ogive to the base.
If you use the closing of the bolt method to final seat the bullet, remember to remove the firing pin assembly so as to not get a false reading. If you feel any tension while trying to remove the dummy cartridge, I put a cleaning rod down the bore while the rifle sits in a cleaning cradle, and ever so gently push on the cleaning rod, while pulling on the bolt body, so that the bullet isn’t moving in the case. This is my 2nd most favorite method and will get me within a couple of thousands every time.
My favorite way to find where a particular bullet touches the start of the rifling isn’t practical for those of you that don’t re-barrel. When I have a rifle re-barreled, I ask my “smith” to save that 1-2” of barrel stub that is cut off any blank on the muzzle end and run the reamer in just past the shoulder. This gives me an exact duplicate of the chamber of that particular rifle. I will then use this “stub” with a fired case and bullet to get an exact measurement for that bullet in that chamber. This method has proved to be very fast and accurate not to mention it’s handier than fumbling with the entire rifle and several small parts. If I plan on using several different bullets I will do this process with all the bullets I plan on using, and record the results.
I hope this is of some help,
Lloyd

 

[thefitter]

Thing is the Hornady tool is anything but exact. Do it 6 times and you can get 6 different measurements. I did it 10 times and averaged. But I'm still not thrilled with the process. But it's just a guideline to me anyway.

Disclaimer- I'm a rookie myself.

That is what you will find because the bullet does not have any neck tension and the cartridge is to under sami specs so it can be used in any gun. the bullet may not be lining up with the center of the bore. The more you do it, the better you will get at it.
If you had a cartridge that was blown out to your chamber made into a modified case, and possibly a little more tension. the better the bullet will align with the chamber and the quicker you will get the dimensions needed. As with some devises for this purpose, you need to do a little tinkering, fine tuning, whatever you want to call it.

I see what you are saying. It's my understanding you can send a case to Hornady and the will thread it for you.

I believe the inconsistency does come from the user. But it's not user error. There is just no way a human can push that plunger forward with the exact same force every time. Any minuscule change in pressure can change the reading by thousands easily. I guess some people use it once and call it good. I personally never measure anything that needs precision once.

I also use a high quality digital caliper that reads ten thousands, so I see variables others may not. Or for that matter may not care about. I'm starting to understand "one mans accuracy is another mans inaccuracy".

6mmBR did a write up about and they themselves stated:

"...When repeatedly measuring with the same bullet, the OAL normally is within .001", 8 times out of 10."

http://www.6mmbr.com/catalog/item/1433308/977259.htm

By that statement you can have 8 different readings within .001 of your actual lands, and 2 off even more. In my book that is not very precise. Maybe I'm just being too anal in my measuring and weighing for this new hobbie of mine.

Fortunately there is no universal magic distance off/on/in the lands that we should all be at. The way I see it is the measurement I get with this tool is just a "rough starting point'. From there I find my own unique sweet spot through good old fashioned trial and error in load development.

Thanks

 

[BBTC48]

As described by RonAKA, I have always used the split case method for any and all my calibers. It's all about technique but is soon mastered. The tip that helps me is to keep your off thumb stuck into the action as you pull the bolt back so as to prevent the natural ejection process from happening which will knock the bullet crocked. I've done this a zillion times and it works quite naturally for me. I check, check, and re-check to be sure using a good sampling from every box of bullets and get consistant readings. I then record the measurement on my data sheets at the bottom of the page in "notes". I also write it on a white sticker and apply that to the inside of the bullet box. Yes, every box may be different (same bullet, different lot) and slight variences do occur in one given box causing you to average them out. But this would apply to the use of a StoneyPoint as well. With use you see who's bullets are the most consistant. I also just make three slits in the neck and never go down into the shoulder to insure enough tension to cleanly extract without losing the bullet and having to poke it out with your cleaning rod. And of course, I use a once-fired from my chamber. I always like anything German puts out, however, if you look up "frugal" in the dictionary, you will see my picture there and clearly I'm not buying a gauge or tool when I can rely on this method and it really does work for me and many others as well. Oh, I've heard of some folks rubbing the bullet with an oily finger to prevent it from sticking in the rifling but I haven't had to do this.
Good luck and good shooting
Bill

 

[40X Guy]

Fitter, Hornady does an excellent job of turning around your once fired cases you send them for modifying, (average of 10 days) plus they will fit your chamber better than the one you buy off the shelf for common calibers.

I use the Sinclair comparator and steel inserts, as these IMO are much more consistant when measuring to your lands. I came up with a method years ago that works well for me and I can get within .001 each measurement. I make sure modified case is tight on OAL tool, and put bullet in case leaving about 1/4 inch of tip sticking out. I push case into chamber and twist back and forth. This is strictly a feel method of course but this ensures the case is in all the way. Then with a small rag on tip of tool I push in bullet to lands again while twisting the tool back and forth, then take your measurement. I will do this 3 times for each bullet, if I get a weird reading, I'll do it 3 times again, but the weird reading is caused by not repeating my methos the same way.

I have discovered also in the past that some of the modified cases need to have the neck turned or skim cut so case does go in all the way. This IMO is the number one cause of inconsistent readings if the neck is too fat for your chamber, also does not hurt to run case thru a body die either.

Frank

 

[RonAKA]

Can someone tell me the spilit case method? I can only assume doing this, it seats itself in the cartridges using this method and you seat it a little deeper?

Split Case Method

1. Take a neck sized only fired case, and use a Dremel to cut a single narrow slot in the neck and shoulder - just as shown in necchi's photo.

2. Select a bullet from the box you plan to load and fit it in the split case. Pick a bullet with a consistent flat tip, or file it a touch to square it up. Adjust case by squeezing the neck to increase tension as required. It does not need a lot of tension and just enough hold the bullet.

3. Carefully chamber it, and remove it slowly. If the ejector is pushing the case sideways, use your finger to keep the bullet from dragging on the side of the chamber or receiver.

4. Measure the overall length of the cartridge to the tip of the bullet, and record it.

5. Repeat step 4 until you get consistent numbers within .001". When you think you are close, then just pull the bullet a slight touch out from the self seated position and confirm it consistently returns to that same spot, and record the final length of the cartridge, and record in you loading book. Mark this bullet so you don't mix it up with the rest.

6. This length represents what overall length you need for that specific bullet to touch the lands. In my opinion just touching the lands is a poor position to seat too. I go either 0.010" longer to jam the bullet, or increments of 0.010" shorter to create a jump to the lands. Calculate your desired OAL to give the jam or jump you want, and record that number.

7. Use this marked bullet to load a live round long in the case, and by seating it deeper and deeper by trial and measure match the OAL you have calculated in step 6.

8. At this point methods may differ. Some save this load and use it to set up your die for the next loading session. I have a micrometer style seating die, so I just record the seating position in my loading book and use the test round at the range.

9. This test load, or recorded seating depth in theory is good for that specific batch of bullets, if it were not for throat burning. Especially when new the throat burns so is a moving target. So, especially with a new barrel you may want to repeat this exercise more often, or if you bought a large batch of the same bullets.

 

[necchi]

To be Honest, it doesn't work well with the Barnes TSX in the photo

Those darn grooves happend be in the neck just enough so the bullet wouldn't stay seated well, thus my purchase of the tools.
The tools do have a learning curve, but like German said you' do get the knack.
Another tip if using the spit neck case;
I used a dremel and a cut off wheel to make the slit, ya gotta get inside the neck and clean any burrs left from the cutting.

 

[bsc4444]

Buy the Sinclair Bullet Seating Depth Tool and Sinclair Hex Style Bullet Compractor.
They are more accurate than the Hornady tool. 1-800-717-8211 and please don't
go with the pinch and jam method.

Brad