What happened to target #3

[iam1964]

Hi,

I was wondering if anyone has any idea what could have happened to group #3?

Rifle is a 223 Savage Elite Precision with a Shilen 1:7 twist barrel.

These were shot yesterday morning and the temperature was 29F.

All 5 shot groups.

All powder weights were the same - 25.1gr of CFE 223 using and AutoTrickler.

All primers were the same.

All cases were 223 Starline.

All bullets were Hornady 80gr ELD-M

I may have left some info out as I am pretty new to all this so let me know if I need to add any more info.

 

[J_idaho]

Did you adjust your scope? Looks like scope moving.

 

[iam1964]

Did you adjust your scope? Looks like scope moving.

I adjusted the scope between each group to move the POI but I did not adjust while shooting a group.

 

[K22]

Target # 3 looks like a typical mirage effect. At what distance were you shooting? Did you notice any mirage changes, i.e. going from overcast to bright sun light? What were the wind conditions? Was the wind changing / swirling?

However, my main concern would be the wide variance in POI on the target. Did you adjust the scope between strings? If so, that would be the first place I would suspect.

 

[K22]

I adjusted the scope between each group to move the POI but I did not adjust while shooting a group.

Sorry, just read this post. After checking all stock and scope mount screws, I definitely would try another scope.

 

[iam1964]

Target # 3 looks like a typical mirage effect. At what distance were you shooting? Did you notice any mirage changes, i.e. going from overcast to bright sun light? What were the wind conditions? Was the wind changing / swirling?

However, my main concern would be the wide variance in POI on the target. Did you adjust the scope between strings? If so, that would be the first place I would suspect.

I was shooting at 200 yards and did not see any noticeable mirage.

I think the scope is pretty solid, it is a Tact Toric, and I have been using for the last 8 months or so with no problems.

I shot a total of 75 rounds yesterday with 3 different powders and all groups were less than 1/2 MOA. It is just group # 3 that is confusing me.

 

[L.Sherm]

I think the scope is pretty solid

Think is the key word here.
Run the exact same test without moving the scope that could give you an answer about your scope.

 

[Schippergreg]

Were you using wind flags?

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Most likely wind. I'd also go up .3 gr of powder unless you're on the edge with your 25.1. Granted, conditions may be different when you get back out. If forecasted temp is considerably warmer, I'd leave it alone. There's a tad of vertical in most of the groups is what I'm attempting to do away with.

As others have said, you really can't tell what the wind is doing without flags. Absolutely the most important tool to shooting better is flags. The gun is wanting to shoot, clearly.

 

[iam1964]

Were you using wind flags?

I did not have wind flags but the wind was minimal, maybe a 5-8 mph headwind.

 

[iam1964]

I don't think the results from my chrono help explain anything other than I had pretty crappy SD's and ES's but I have attached a picture anyway

 

[Coyotefurharvester]

Left to right target sequence? Looks like a scope issue.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I did not have wind flags but the wind was minimal, maybe a 5-8 mph headwind.

Just being frank here....without flags, no way you know what the wind was doing down range. And 5-8mph is plenty to move the bullet that much. Just do a simple test. Even a single piece of surveyor tape on a coat hanger stuck in the ground. Fire the gun in two opposite conditions and see what happens. Now do the same but try to shoot in identical conditions for each shot. More than one streamer or flag is way better but a single ribbon is way better than nothing at all. It can't be over stated, the importance of flags. It just can't. Once you get to a certain point with your shooting and your equipment, which usually is the point where the wind is of more value that your no wind dispersion, you run into a wall, where you can't consistently improve without a means of reading the wind all the way to the target. You're at that point and flags will help more than anything else you can do. You're on here asking what you can do to improve and myself and others have mentioned flags. I very strongly encourage you to use something. Good flags are best but anything is better than nothing, sir. There's a pretty good chance you were having to make scope adjustments because of wind.

 

[K22]

I did not have wind flags but the wind was minimal, maybe a 5-8 mph headwind.

Might be a headwind and might not be since the wind can sometimes be variable through the range you are shooting.

Look at the ballistics table for 200 yards and pugged in different wind angles for 5 to 8 miles an hour. It may shock you how much wind contributes to dispersion.

While not ideal, you can use ribbons at various distances to give you a makeshift wind indicator.

On the scope issue, I had an Elite Bushnell I have used for year with excellent results that last year started shifting groups. The groups would be tight but would shift with time. It took some time before I suspected the scope. I replaced the scope and the problem disappeared. I hated that solution because it cost me $500. Not doubt the financial consequences kept me in denial.

 

[iam1964]

Just being frank here....without flags, no way you know what the wind was doing down range. And 5-8mph is plenty to move the bullet that much. Just do a simple test. Even a single piece of surveyor tape on a coat hanger stuck in the ground. Fire the gun in two opposite conditions and see what happens. Now do the same but try to shoot in identical conditions for each shot. More than one streamer or flag is way better but a single ribbon is way better than nothing at all. It can't be over stated, the importance of flags. It just can't. Once you get to a certain point with your shooting and your equipment, which usually is the point where the wind is of more value that your no wind dispersion, you run into a wall, where you can't consistently improve without a means of reading the wind all the way to the target. You're at that point and flags will help more than anything else you can do. You're on here asking what you can do to improve and myself and others have mentioned flags. I very strongly encourage you to use something. Good flags are best but anything is better than nothing, sir.

Thanks for the info and encouragement. I appreciate all comments.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Thanks for the info and encouragement. I appreciate all comments.

I don't think there is anything about shooting that's cheaper than surveyor tape and 3 or 4 straightened out coat hangers stuck in the ground. What do you have to lose? One bad group costs more than that. I will not waste time and components doing load work without flags set.

 

[searcher]

Given the amount of vertical in all but your first group, it would appear you were shooting with a significant enough headwind or tailwind to disperse your groups. At 200 yards, it only takes maybe 2-4 miles per hour to get that kind of spread. If you were shooting in dead-calm conditions, then I'd say add a bit more powder, check your scope and mount, action screws, whether your rifle was positioned the same in groups 2-5 on your rest and rear bag, etc. If you were aiming at the same point in each of the five shots in a headwind or tailwind of 3 mph or more, this is to be expected. Then there is duplicating the hold on the rifle if not free recoiling the rig.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Given the amount of vertical in all but your first group, it would appear you were shooting with a significant enough headwind or tailwind to disperse your groups. At 200 yards, it only takes maybe 2-4 miles per hour to get that kind of spread. If you were shooting in dead-calm conditions, then I'd say add a bit more powder, check your scope and mount, action screws, whether your rifle was positioned the same in groups 2-5 on your rest and rear bag, etc. If you were aiming at the same point in each of the five shots in a headwind or tailwind of 3 mph or more, this is to be expected. Then there is duplicating the hold on the rifle if not free recoiling the rig.

Yes, just plugging the numbers into a ballistics program can be a lot of help in this sort of thing. Most programs anyway, factor the vertical component of wind into it.

 

[OMW57]

A "headwind" at 5-8 mph, can quickly switch from 11 o-clock to 1 o-clock without you noticing it without flags, & will easily move your poi that much at 200!
Ill give ya credit for going out at 29 degrees though! Better man than I, or at least younger & tougher!

 

[S Miller]

You say you’re fairly new to this, great time to work some flags into your program. Great job shooting .5 moa across 5 targets imagine if you had flags. The list is very long why groups open, if I were to guess what happen to you my first guess would be no flags and my second would be something optical,mirage, parallax, shooting over snow. Lets us know how your next agg goes.