What components would you start with? 223 Rem - 29" 1:7 - 600y MR FTR

[MikeMcCasland]

Gents,

I got a call from the smith this morning, and was told my 700 action should be trued up, and it'll have a 29" 1:7 Krieger screwed onto it. I asked him to throat it for 77-90gr bullets, specifically so I can get my feet wet in F-TR MR competition.

I'm going to be ordering components tomorrow night, and was wondering what this group might suggest. I'm thinking of trying out the Berger 80.5s, 77TMKs, and Nosler 80 RDFs. I figure for ~500-600 yard work, I probably won't *need* to run the 90s, and I also have concerns about brass life if I run them fast enough to stabilize.

I'll be using either Varget or 8208XBR as the powder, and Lapua brass.

Anyone see any issues with those three bullets as a starting point, or have any better suggestions?

Thanks,
Mike

 

[Jdne5b]

A 1:7 will stabilize those bullets just fine.

Throated for 77s wont be ideal for 90s, and vise versa. Throat for 90s and run 80.5s and 90s (or just 90s). Skip 77s unless you just really want to use them against others running 200gr .308s.

90gr bullets should tune in a couple spots between 2770 and 2850ish depending. Brass life will be good at the lower end and tolerable on the high end if throated properly.

Varget and Hodgdon H4895 would be your best options for powder. 8208 might be a touch fast for competitive velocities and sane pressures.

 

[Mozella]

I have two F-TR guns similar to yours and here's what I found. The Nosler RDF's are really sexy looking and four of five shoot well and the fifth goes wacko. They just weren't' consistent. Others have had similar experiences.

I don't know about the Berger 80.5's. I shoot the Berger 80gr VLD's and nearly everyone I compete against does the same. You might consider starting with IMR 8208 XBR if you have it on hand. It's what I shoot in one gun and Vihtavouri N-140 in the other. I've tested Varget with OK results too, but sometimes you can't jam enough of in in the .223 case, especially if your gun likes bullet seated with a significant jump.

I wore out a good portion of the life of a 1:7 twist barrel trying to get the 90's to shoot reliably. Sometimes it would shoot wonderful tight 5 shot groups and then the next group would be either bad or horrible. I tried just about everything including a 1:6.5 twist barrel, but I just couldn't get the consistency needed to win. Some folks swear they can make them work, but none of my shooting pals have been successful.

Plenty of people do well using Berger 80 VLD's with 8208 XBR. Start with a low charge weight of course, and work your way up. If you have the Berger 80.5's on hand, give them a try. Don't be surprised if some kind of Berger shoots the best.

I suspect you can pick either Varget or 8208XBR as your powder to go with either the 80.5 or 80VLD Berger bullet and do load development to make which ever combination you select, shoot 5 shot groups 1/2 MOA at 100 yards much of the time. It would be unusual if that weren't the case if you do a good job developing your load recipe. Once you find a combination which works, use that as your competition recipe while you're learning the ropes. Then, in the future, you might experiment with the other powder or N-140 along with a different bullet, perhaps even the Berger 90's and see if you can improve.

In other words, pick a set of components that other guys have had success with. Develop something that will work for you in a short amount of time. If you test all possibilities, it will take too long. Enter as many matches as you can, and learn how to shoot F-TR. Then, after you're pretty good, start fine tuning your stuff by experimenting with other powders and bullets on your way to the world championships.

Remember, confidence is an important factor when you launch that first round in a match. Knowing that you have a reliable recipe which you truly believe will shoot 1/2 MOA or better is a nice place to start. A match is no place to be thinking, "Gee, I wonder if that lousy shot I just flung into the 8 ring was me missing a wind call or if it's because of this unreliable ammo recipe which shot occasional flyers for no apparent reason when tested it?" I've been there, done that, with both the Nosler RDF's and Berger 90's.

Refining your ammo to where you can think about shooting 1/4 MOA 5 shot groups at 100 yards is much more difficult and should probably be a goal for the future.

Expect to have fun.

 

[Ned Ludd]

Throat it for Berger 90 VLDs and you can still shoot the Berger 80.5s or 82s. Throating for the shorter 80s and trying to shoot the 90s is probably not ideal. A rifle throated for the Berger 90 VLD should also work with the SMK90s, and possibly the Hornady 88s, so you'd have a lot of choices. Your 7-twist is plenty for any of those bullets.

As others have mentioned, I'd avoid the 77s, they simply cannot keep up with the heavier and higher BC .224 bullets or .308s in F-TR if there's much wind. If you're interested, Dave Kiff at PTG makes a reamer specifically for the 90s with 0.169 freebore (image below). You could certainly go even a bit longer than that, but your ability to optimally load the shorter 80s will begin to suffer sooner or later.

As has also been noted, Varget or H4895 are good powders to try. H4895 will typically give you about 25-30 fps greater velocity at a given node than Varget, but also will run slightly higher pressures. Running the 2850-ish node with H4895 and 90s from a 30" barrel is hard on brass, no question about it.

If you decide to shoot the 90 VLDs, they typically tune in with a 30" barrel at about 2820-ish using Varget, and 2850-ish with H4895. With a 29" barrel, the optimal velocity windows might be a few fps less. The real key with the 90s is seating depth. Many people have found that they will group well seated at about .004" to .007" into the lands. Some people have also found they will tune in at about .020" off the lands. Not everyone observes both seating depth optima, but if you have the choice, I'd go with the ~.020" off the lands. It's typically a wider window.

If you do a search in the 22s, 20s, and 17s Forum using the query, "90 VLD", you will find tons more info going back a number of years as to various things people did to get them to shoot. In my hands, they typically tune in as well as just about any bullet I've ever used; for others, it has apparently been a struggle at times.

 

[MikeMcCasland]

Amazing responses here guys; I genuinely appreciate it. You've given me a lot to think about.

I'll skip the RDFs and look at Sierra/Berger 80-90gr offerings. I'll also grab some 4895 and a Forster comp seater; I suspect everything I load is going to be compressed, and the redding comp die isn't going to cut it.

 

[Mozella]

Amazing responses here guys; I genuinely appreciate it. You've given me a lot to think about.

I'll skip the RDFs and look at Sierra/Berger 80-90gr offerings. I'll also grab some 4895 and a Forster comp seater; I suspect everything I load is going to be compressed, and the redding comp die isn't going to cut it.

I think Varget will be your biggest challenge when it comes to case capacity vs getting enough powder in there to launch your bullets as fast as you might like. I think you'll be OK with 4895, but check to be sure.

As for seating, check out the Wilson micrometer die which works with a simple arbor press. I REALLY like mine, it's a huge improvement over my previous dies which worked in a conventional press, and it's only a little more expensive. If you're gonna' buy a die anyway, I'd highly recommend the Wilson.
https://lewilson.com/stainless-steel-bullet-seater-with-micrometer-adjustment/

I only wish they sold them cheaper without the seating stem because you have to replace the "standard" seating stem with a VLD "low drag" version and that adds about 25 bucks to the cost.

 

[JayBeeYou]

Mike,
I have a bunch of various 80 grainers left over from when I shot a 223 bolt I will give you. I have Sierra, Berger, and Hornady 80 grainers in enough quantity to run some solid testing. I can send them to you or bring them to next CTSA match if your going. Let me know if you want them.

 

[MikeMcCasland]

Mike,
I have a bunch of various 80 grainers left over from when I shot a 223 bolt I will give you. I have Sierra, Berger, and Hornady 80 grainers in enough quantity to run some solid testing. I can send them to you or bring them to next CTSA match if your going. Let me know if you want them.

Man I really appreciate that (and the tips at the last match), but I pulled the trigger on $800 worth of components about an hour ago. I suspect I have enough to keep me very busy until the next CTSA event.

Out of curiosity, were you giving up that many points at MR with the .223?

 

[JayBeeYou]

Man I really appreciate that (and the tips at the last match), but I pulled the trigger on $800 worth of components about an hour ago. I suspect I have enough to keep me very busy until the next CTSA event.

Out of curiosity, were you giving up that many points at MR with the .223?

I never shot the 223 for fclass, but I have had my butt handed to me and my 308 at MR more than once. Best analogy I have heard used is a 223 with 90's is equivalent of a 308 and juggernauts. 80's maybe be closer to a 155, both with no recoil and much more forgiving gun handling. At 600 and in an accurate 223 can hurt alot of 308 shooters feelings.

 

[cmillard]

I would PM Laurie Holland on this site

 

[Mozella]

....... snip............
Out of curiosity, were you giving up that many points at MR with the .223?

Don't even think about any performance disadvantage. When you beat the 308 guys with your little "Mouse Gun" you can glance over and give them a little smirk. When they respond with a grimace and some Unicorn Tears, it will all be worth it.

 

[MikeMcCasland]

Hurt feelings and unicorn tears? Sign. Me. Up. I didn't think it was possible, but now I'm even more excited about this build.

On a serious note, I'm looking forward to a change of pace as far as load development goes. I've been shooting a Bartlein 260 tube for the past ~month that's been a bit temperamental; in all my past .223 rigs, they've dialed in almost instantaneously, so I'm hoping that trend continues here.

Appreciate the help guys.

 

[rcgill]

Don't overlook the Hornady 80 ELD.

 

[Bully]

I just finished up my first season of FTR. Started off the first match that had 17mph twitchy winds blowing everyone around.
I finished the season at the "State Championship" where I believe I came in third. I just got my Expert card in the mail from the NRA. It sounds a lot more official than it is...

I'm running the Sierra SMK 80's at 2950ish from a 26" barrel using Varget/BR-4/Lapua. It's a 1:7 Rock Creek. It does well and I wound up putting about 1100 rounds thru it so far.

I am building another rifle with another Rock Creek 1:7. I will be testing the 90's but am completely comfortable if it turn out that I have to stick with the 80 Sierra's. I will also look to test the 80 VLD just for giggles. I'd like to try 8208XBR but am very fond of Varget so we'll see how that goes.

As far as load development, I've started using the 10 Round Load Development that the 6.5Guys put up. It works well for me and cuts down on barrel wear and component cost.

And I agree that beating the 308 FTR shooters is fun, but it's even more fun beating the Open guys shooting the big 7's at 600 yards. I really enjoy that.

Good luck and have fun.

 

[chkunz]

I have a 223 bolt action match rifle with a 26 inch 1 in 7 barrel that I use for mid range competition. I shoot NRA conventional prone (sling) competition with this rifle.

The load development for this rifle included 13 different loads tested at 100 yards from bench rest. The bullets tested included the 75 A MAX, 80 SMK, 90 SMK and 82 Burger. Multiple ten shot groups were fired for each load for a total of 31 ten shot groups. The best combination of accuracy and velocity (wind drift) was obtained with the 75 A-MAX with 23.9 grains of AA2520.

I put all the details of this testing in report format, if you would like a copy of the report send me an email at chkunz@bellsouth.net and I will send you a copy.

Best wishes,
Clyde

 

[Bully]

I have a 223 bolt action match rifle with a 26 inch 1 in 7 barrel that I use for mid range competition. I shoot NRA conventional prone (sling) competition with this rifle.

The load development for this rifle included 13 different loads tested at 100 yards from bench rest. The bullets tested included the 75 A MAX, 80 SMK, 90 SMK and 82 Burger. Multiple ten shot groups were fired for each load for a total of 31 ten shot groups. The best combination of accuracy and velocity (wind drift) was obtained with the 75 A-MAX with 23.9 grains of AA2520.

I put all the details of this testing in report format, if you would like a copy of the report send me an email at chkunz@bellsouth.net and I will send you a copy.

Best wishes,
Clyde

Clyde's info is a ton of information. Awesome stuff.

 

[XTR]

If you are shooting a 223 bolt gun and you are shooting F-TR until this yr there was only one real option if you want to be competitive, and that is the Berger 90VLD. I've won or placed well (as in podium) in a number of state/regional/national level matches over the last few yrs with them.

If you have a 28-30" 7 twist barrel you can run them around 2800 or above with the proper chamber.

That said (and a swear one day I will keep this somewhere so I can cut and paste it):HA! finally did.

1. Get the right chamber. the PTG 223 ISSF reamer with a .169 freebore is the easy button for this, or get a throater and throat it out. You have to get the bullet up out of the case and into the neck.
2. See #1 above, go no further until you have enough freebore or #4 below is dangerous.
3. Pic a primer and brass. I've had success with old 90s LC, others run Lapua
4. Load 24.3gr ±.2 of Varget
5. Seat jam'd 0.010
6. That will put you in the vicinity of 2800 ±25FPS
7. Go shoot Xs

This is the recipe that a whole bunch of F-TR shooters use. There are some that seat longer, run a little faster and don't necessarily jam them.


The 90s give up ~3" of windage in a 10 mph full value wint to the 308s running 200s at 600 yards. They give up nothing but recoil t the 185s, and they shoot inside of the 155s at all yard lines.

I've played with 80 AMAXs just for fun at club matches, but I've never used them in anything "serious". In the above setup you can run the 80s in the high 2800s. I've never shot my 223 past 600. I have 308s for the long lines.

There are a number of F-TR shooters that shoot the 90s in competition, and they win at mid range.

There are some people experimemting with the new SMK95 in 223s that are giving good feedback, but that bullet requires a 1:6.5 or faster and a freebore that is close to .130 longer than the 90VLD, not a good place for a beginner to start. I've experimented with a few 95s. I throated out a chamber for them and my OALs are on the order of 2.730

edit: gave this advice to a local shooter recently for getting a setup for his daughter shooting mid range. She finished 2nd in the Maine State championships (and shot a couple of cleans)

 

[MikeMcCasland]

Gents, lots of outstanding feedback in this thread. I really appreciate the time yall have put into the responses.

I just picked the rifle up from the smith today. It was reamed with a .223 "TX LR" reamer; some custom reamer designed by one of the local LR 223 shooters. It has a .170 freebore and a .255 neck

I've got some 80gr SMKs and 80.5 Bergers on hand, with more bullets coming in. That said, I took some initial measurements with the 80gr SMKs and it doesn't look like I'm hitting the lands until ~2.615"-2.620" (these obviously aren't comparator measurements). That's admittedly longer than I had expected, but I was wondering if that's in the ballpark of where others were?

The pressure ring is probably only seated into the neck .150" I figure as long as it's seated and has tension on it, it should be ok, but wanted to ask the smart guys.

 

[Laurie]

I would PM Laurie Holland on this site

That's flattering my friend, but there are many on the Forum whose experience is more up to date and useful now than mine as it goes back to 2009-12. As others have said in their posts, the 169 freebore ISSF chamber is the way to go these days allowing a mix of good bullets whilst my chamber had longer freebore and wasn't much use with anything other than Berger's two 90s (now reduced to one).

(I've never lost my love of the 223 as an F cartridge though and have a 223 F-Open rifle [ !!] on the cards for short to mid-range matches. The reason for 'Open' is to let me use a really heavy barrel and a muzzle tuner and with my 223's chunky McRees stock, it goes over F-TR weight with anything heavier than a 'Heavy Palma' profile )

 

[MikeMcCasland]

Just "smoked" a dummy 80gr SMK with a lighter. It looks like I only have about .60" of pressure ring/bearing surface within the case, however when the boat tail is included there is a total of ~.220 of bullet in the neck of the case.

This is obviously seated pretty far out there; moreso than I've ever done before. Is this safe/ok to shoot, or is this thing just throated too long for 80grs.