What bushing size after annealing?

[michaeljp65]

Can someone enlighten me a bit about annealing?
Lets just say ive worked up a good load for my rifle and after a few firings the brass is starting to work harden and i have to anneal them. For this load, (just an example) loaded round is .302" neck bushing is .300". After annealing do i just use the same bushing, .300" or a different one to achieve the same neck tension and accuracy i had before annealing?

 

[DHuffman]

Same bushing should yield the same neck tension.

 

[vulrath]

I don't see any reason to change it. The material isn't swelling or contracting. You could make an argument regarding springback, but I doubt it would affect it enough to make a difference.

 

[MikeMcCasland]

Same bushing, same mandrel/expander/pin gauge.

 

[michaeljp65]

So annealing, theoretically, bring the brass back to its original state/size?

 

[michaeljp65]

Thank you for your quick replies gentlemen.

 

[MikeMcCasland]

So annealing, theoretically, bring the brass back to its original state/size?

It brings it back to its original hardness. It will not alter the size.

 

[michaeljp65]

Thanks Mike, maybe a bad choice of words on my part. Thanks.

 

[MikeMcCasland]

All good!

One minor thing you may want to check if you're just getting started in annealing is your shoulder bump. It's going to be more consistent than it used to be, and it might also be slightly different. If you have a load that shoots, you may want to make sure your die is setup to bump your annealed brass the same way.

 

[Sandstorm]

+1 on the shoulder bump. ( Meaning it may move a little easier and further)

 

[Metal God]

All good!

One minor thing you may want to check if you're just getting started in annealing is your shoulder bump. It's going to be more consistent than it used to be, and it might also be slightly different. If you have a load that shoots, you may want to make sure your die is setup to bump your annealed brass the same way.

Yep which leads me to wonder why so many think it will not effect neck tension/bullet hold/pull . My guess is the guys saying you will not see a difference anneal after every firing . Which in that case you won't because you annealed last time so the second verse is the same as the first . My other guess is none of those same guys actually fired cases 5,6,7 time then annealed and compared bullet hold . I have and I can say with 100% certainty that "my" 6 time fired WCC-06 cases had substantially more bullet hold then those same cases fully annealed .

My question would be how many firings do these cases have and have you noticed a drop off in any aspect of there consistency from the first firing to the last or any drop off at each firing as it relates on the target ?

 

[Sandstorm]

have you noticed a drop off in any aspect of there consistency from the first firing to the last or any drop off at each firing as it relates on the target

Not when I anneal every time. They remain consistent enough to shoot cleans at 600 yds
and neck tension is adjusted with mandrels, so it stays the same even after 8 or 9 firings.

 

[Metal God]

My guess is the guys saying you will not see a difference anneal after every firing . Which in that case you won't because you annealed last time so the second verse is the same as the first .

I said the same thing , the OP is not annealing every time . Guys that anneal every firing don't know the difference when only annealing once every 5th or so firing but still give advice as if annealing every time is the same as annealing once every 5th firing . Cases size differently after the 4th or 5th time fired without annealing then they do if freshly annealed . So much so I stopped fully annealing any cases that won't be single feed by hand . I don't dare fully anneal auto loading cartridges for fear of the bullet being jammed into the case when feeding do to poor bullet hold as it relates to what auto loaders need .

I feel I should clarify something I could have said more clearly in my first post , when I said 5,6,7 times fired I mean 5,6,7 times fired without annealing .

I guess my point is that I see so often guys that anneal think it's a all or nothing , one size fits all type of thing and IMHO it's far from it . The OP's bullet hold will be different on his freshly annealed cases then they were the last time he fired them , the question is will he notice it on paper ?

 

[Ned Ludd]

There is a difference between bullet "hold" or "grip", meaning the force by which the bullet is gripped by the neck wall, and "neck tension", to which many reloaders refer by the change in neck diameter before/after seating a bullet, even though what they're really referring to is "interference fit". The interference fit (or "neck tension") will not change noticeably due to annealing, which largely rearranges the grain structure of the brass, but does not appreciably change its mass or density. More importantly, the softness/hardness of the brass can absolutely make a difference in bullet "hold", even where the measured interference fit (neck tension) remains constant, exactly as you have observed. This difference can be measured using a seating force gauge, or may simply be noticed by the different "feel" of the press handle when seating bullets. Depending on the precision requirements, it may be sufficient to change the properties of a given load.

For those that do not fully anneal every firing, work-hardening of the case neck/shoulder will cause the seating force to increase with each firing. It may not even be noticeable without a force gauge after a single firing, but it will almost certainly be noticeable after 5 to 6 (or more) firings without annealing. As you noted, the real question is whether the change in grip after a firing or two without annealing, where the change in brass hardness may not be yet noticeable when seating bullets with a typical press, is sufficient to cause a noticeable change in precision. Obviously, that's a hard one to answer because everyone's precision needs and capabilities are different. For those that require the highest possible precision, the most common choice is not to leave anything to chance by annealing every firing. For those that do not require the highest possible precision, a little experimentation with a few cases with various numbers of firings between annealing steps might be worthwhile.

 

[Straightshooter1]

With regards to the OP question, whether a different bushing should be used when annealing depends on how much spring back he was getting before and how much after annealing. Obviously, when anneaning often, one is going to get less spring back, therefore the measured "neck tension" is going to be less. Whether that much less "neck tension" makes a difference is hard to quantify since there are other factors that are a play . . . like the reduction of the neck's grip (as Ned Ludd mentions above). And there's the issue of consistency of that grip.

On the ampannealing.com website their research, as published under Annealing Made Perfect, is very comprehensive and clearly exhibits the benefit of annealing even to the point of how often it's done makes a difference. Of course, they will emphasize the benefit of having "consistent" annealing that their machine can do. But aside from that, the data is very clear.

Results Of Induction Annealing | Our Research | AMP

View the latest articles from AMP Annealing. Get tips and tricks from our R&D. Here we upload articles to provide your the best possible information on innovations in the annealing process.

www.ampannealing.com

An example at the end of their Part 4 segment, they show what the difference can be in chamber sealing properties:

How Induction Annealing Works | Under The Microscope | AMP

View the latest articles from AMP Annealing. Get tips and tricks from our R&D. Here we upload articles to provide your the best possible information on innovations in the annealing process.

www.ampannealing.com

The 308W cases above are part of the testing done by Lou Murdica recently. We will refer to them as "Brand X”. They were shot with a very hot load. The cases in the above photo were unannealed from virgin brass. From the fourth shot on they exhibited gas leakage.

These cases above are the same brand shot with the same load the same number of times. They were annealed each reload. No gas leakage was experienced. We will be doing ongoing research on this subject.

 

[Shooter13]

Same bushing should yield the same neck tension.

All you are doing when you anneal is make the metal (brass) more pliable and therefore easier to work. No change in the bushing.

 

[flintcreek6412]

This is all that I know.

I anneal every time.

I ordered a Forster sizing die and told them I wanted it honed to .335 so my turned necks(.015) would size such that my expander mandrel at .306 would hardly do any sizing at all for the .002 neck tension I like. They told me I need to order a .333 to allow for spring back. Ok, they are the pros. Well it arrived and guess what....I didn't get the spring back like they said it would and the mandrel took more force than I wanted to open the neck. I sent it back and had them hone it to .335 which they did. Sized exactly at .335 and the expander worked perfect.

So......all I know is annealing will affect spring back so it will affect your final neck after sizing. If you just annealed I'd personally use a bushing .001 or .002 larger and see what happens.

Here is my die that was originally .333 then honed to .335. You can see where they partially ground off the .333 marking.

 

[JFrank]

I guess I'll be the minority and not anneal at all, I haven't seen any ill effects on paper unless im trying to use too light of neck tension or bullet hold or interference fit or whatever we're calling it these days, in fact I'm becoming a fan of plenty.

 

[R.Morehouse]

To address consistent spring back at the neck & shoulder, when I raise the brass into the die I leave it in there while I lube the next case ( approx. 10 seconds). This seems to take care of the inconsistencies. Shooting SR BR and loading at the range between relays leaves no time in my system for annealing every firing.

Regards
Rick

 

[Shooter13]

This is all that I know.

I anneal every time.

I ordered a Forster sizing die and told them I wanted it honed to .335 so my turned necks(.015) would size such that my expander mandrel at .306 would hardly do any sizing at all for the .002 neck tension I like. They told me I need to order a .333 to allow for spring back. Ok, they are the pros. Well it arrived and guess what....I didn't get the spring back like they said it would and the mandrel took more force than I wanted to open the neck. I sent it back and had them hone it to .335 which they did. Sized exactly at .335 and the expander worked perfect.

So......all I know is annealing will affect spring back so it will affect your final neck after sizing. If you just annealed I'd personally use a bushing .001 or .002 larger and see what happens.

Here is my die that was originally .333 then honed to .335. You can see where they partially ground off the .333 marking.View attachment 1266034

You know I could have been wrong BuT (LOL) I have annealed from the beginning and that may be the reason I never saw a difference. JAT