What 4x scope for a service rifle?

[XTR]

So with the likelihood that "service rifle" is going to allow up to 4.5x and 35mm optics what is currently out there for the game?

I've looked and most all of the "AR" scopes from what I'd call better manufacturers have gone to 6x over the last couple of yrs. The ones that are out there in 4x most have 0.1 mil turrets. The exception I see is the Vortex PST but it has 1/2 MOA clicks, seems a little coarse. (My White Oak has ¼ MOA clicks on) I've tried to coach guys with mil turrets on an MOA NRA target, it sucks. I don't want to have to think that hard in a match. I'd definitely want MOA turrets.

What's out there today that might be the cats meow under the new rules?

 

[Rtheurer]

So with the likelihood that "service rifle" is going to allow up to 4.5x and 35mm optics what is currently out there for the game?

I've looked and most all of the "AR" scopes from what I'd call better manufacturers have gone to 6x over the last couple of yrs. The ones that are out there in 4x most have 0.1 mil turrets. The exception I see is the Vortex PST but it has 1/2 MOA clicks, seems a little coarse. (My White Oak has ¼ MOA clicks on) I've tried to coach guys with mil turrets on an MOA NRA target, it sucks. I don't want to have to think that hard in a match. I'd definitely want MOA turrets.

What's out there today that might be the cats meow under the new rules?

There is a great debate and also an Scope Evaluation on the National Match Forum about all this.
I got a Bushnell to test. Not a great option. The down side is there is NO foucus parallax on any of the 4X scopes that max out at that power per the proposed rules. In fact I don't see a big advantage to using one except in a low light sitiation. I could not see the scoreing rings at 200 or 300yrds. Just kinda had to center it up in the black. Its not vfery precise.
Some Military Teams are going for the Night Force. Still No Parallax adjustment.

Those who have not tried a 4X scope somehow think its going to change the world. My Experience...Not so Much.

Russel

 

[XTR]

Russ, my reason is my vision. I'm 55 and had lasic 13 yrs ago. I was shooting the CZ scout 22 I got for my 6yr old for Christmas last week, the front sight is hard to get in focus, and the rear is a joke.

For me apertures help, a lot, and I've got a set for my White Oak, but I'm thinking maybe a scope might make it more fun to shoot. Personally I doubt I'll ever seriously get into service rifle (other than owing a dedicated upper and a lower with a Geissele trigger) as long as I can find some place to shoot F-TR, but I'd like to find the time to get out a dabble. Last time I did it at a CMP clinic in Oak Ridge I had Chubb coaching me and it was pretty fun, so I'd like to do it some more.

I agree that the 4x isn't going to be much of a game changer scores wise, and if the parallax is out of whack that is going to be counter productive.

SWFA makes a 4x that I think has adjustable parallax, though that may be an illumination knob, but it's a FFP mil/mil setup. I don't remember if when that scope first came out there was an MOA option.


I have also dabbled in BPCR and there scopes vs irons haven't made much difference. In their case they are limited to 3/4 inch objective tubes, so the malcolm or BACO 10x is about all you can get and for shooting 1000 yards, it ain't much different.

 

[wolley]

The SWFA does not have adjustable parallax. The knob you see is for illumination.
Clicks are .1mill
Parallax is fixed at 100yards
The reticle is way too busy for service rifle competition.
Scopes are going to make a step change in scores. Not amongst the High Master shooters with young eyes but those with age related presbyopia will see big differences.

 

[XTR]

I'm not sure that any of the scopes out there today will help much at 600. I can see where during rapids it would probably be easier to get centered up again, but at 600 yards 4x with parallax set at 100 may not be particularly useful for shooting into the 10 ring with consistency.

Nightforce or Vortex is going to have to build a scope for this, stand by to drop $1800 on glass. Now the question is whether or not the market is as big as F class, because NF effectively built the Competition scopes for us, and I'd wager they have over 90% of the market with the BR, the NXS and the Comp.

Think that a scope specifically for the game shows up in less than 3 yrs?

 

[JRS]

You can manually change the factory set parallax distance on most non AO fixed power scopes.

 

[Rtheurer]

As JRS pointed out, some brave sole took a scope apart and found that by taking the objective ring off the front you can move the glass forward or backward to set your own parallax, just like they do at the factory or warranty shop if. You can do it without breaking the seal on Argon or what ever gas they have in there.
Going to do that on my Bushnell because it was cheap and I don't care.

 

[JRS]

Go slow, use a rubber strap wrench, and don't remove the lens carrier. You won't lose the gas as long as the carrier stays in place.

 

[Rtheurer]

I really did a search and found two Scopes smaller power glass that can be had with Adjustable Paralax. The US optics.. Because they will build you anything you want... but your going to have to sell a kidney. and The March company sells a 6X is scope. which does not make the max power adjustment of 4.5X. If they could be convinced to put a Limit stop on the power ring.. That would be the Easy Button on a very very nice optic.
I thought the Kahles was one as well. But upon further inspection it has a fixed parallax. These things just where not designed for our type of shooting at 600 yards where a fair amount of Precision is needed. Cheaper scopes don't seem to track in elevation or Windage either which for a LEG match is very important. The whole point of (I feel) for getting your Distinguished Badge is that you know how to Read wind and what your Zero's are out to 600 yards. Kinda tough to do that if your Equipment wont do it.

 

[XTR]

Looking at the NF NXS1-4, I think it could be pretty close to perfect if the parallax can be figured out.

It's funny, I've watched the AR scopes go from 1-4 to 1-6 and now even some 1-8 offerings (some of those above referenced kidney sales required) so most of the manufacturers have moved away from making 4x scopes. It's going to be interesting to see who can move the fastest to get something good out there. I'm betting on NF, they impressed me with the turn around on the changes to the Comp between 2013 and 2014, they listened to the F class shooters and fixed pretty much every complaint.

The other one that might work well would be the Vortex PST 1-4. It's got a busy reticle, but I wonder if the ring could be used to center up on the black at 600?

edit:
Russ, I went over and registered on the NM forums to read some.
In general, I think I should refrain from posting there (I stink too much of F class), and I don't have nearly enough anger.

One other thing, reading the guys in the scope thread it looks like they have discovered mils for the very first time. I loved the 3 or 4 answers to how many MOA a .15mil click was worth. Frank Galli's (Lowlight) keyboard might explode if he ever managed to open that thread. (sorry I'm just having a LMAO moment with the mental image)

 

[wolley]

The confusion was that the manufacturer gave the specs in .15mill at 100 meters. Us knuckle drafters don't do meters and we don't do millaradians. So yea we were
Cornfused.

 

[Rtheurer]

Ba ha ha!!! Ya man. gets pretty heated over there. There seems to be ALOT less knowledge of optics there which to be honest kinda surprised me. Just General stuff.
But in the same vein. They do know ALL things Service Rifle CMP and NRA style. Optics is not really their game. Well it wasn't before anyway. In fact NRA HighPower matches have allowed optics for many years. But no one wants to get caught shooting one against Iron sight match Rifle's. The Ribbing would be endless. Its allowed in Camp Perry but only less than a dozen choose to shoot with a scope.
I would do it and have tried it ( Match Rifle) except I like the Round sights and can still see those.... Post sight on a AR... Not so much.
Russel

 

[Rtheurer]

If your not in a hurry. I would wait it out for a summer to see what the heck shakes out. If you have a use for this type of scope other than CMP matches, then maybe you could proceed like I did knowing It may get moved to another project. ( my 45ACP Upper)
Good luck this summer. Looks like I wont make Oak Ridge again this year. : (
Russel