WASHER DIES VS FL DIES

[Webster]

For a 6BR:
I have a Redding Full Length Sizing Die (FL W8). If I FL size the cases with this die I get about 0.0005" variation in the case o.d. diameter on the same case. If I use a Redding Bushing Die (B/FL OT) I get 3-4 thou difference between the max and minimum diameter on the same case. The necks are turned to 0.0127" about +/- 0.0002". It looks like the washer does not self center. Short range BR competitors don't use washer dies. They use custum made FL dies and an small hand press. What's going on here? I would like to FL always but the factory die sizes down to much, about 0.006" tension. The higher tension is OK if it shoots small groups. Casual BR shooting and varmints. I consider anything approaching a .400" group very bad for this rifle. Should I send the die to Redding with a couple fired cases and have the die neck honed out a few thou?

 

[mikecr]

By case OD do you mean loaded neck OD? Or do you mean runout? As measured where & with what tools?
Never heard of a 'washer die'..
What is a 'Redding Bushing Die (B/FL OT)'?

 

[fguffey]

I have a Redding Full Length Sizing Die (FL W8). If I FL size the cases with this die I get about 0.0005"

We could talk about that but this forum has a brain trust, starts with mikec not understanding the question.

F. Guffey

 

[stool]

i do not see where the measurements he is talking about with the first die is an issue. who cares if the case od varies 0.0005 ??

most of his questions are lost to most of us..
not reloader english

 

[mikecr]

I'm just trying to head off three pages to nowhere, before anyone reaches awareness of the actual problem at hand.
This happens on occasion.

 

[Webster]

I didn't say 0.0005" was an issue. Why are the case neck O.D. diameters more uniform around the circumference with a FL die than a bushing die (less oval shaped) . Sorry I keep calling bushing dies washer dies. (B/FL OT) is Reddings engraved identification on the die.

 

[LHSmith]

Short range BR competitors don't use washer dies. They use custum made FL dies and an small hand press.

I do not believe that to be true. Custom bullets vary a few tenths from maker to maker, powders require different neck tensions, trying to stay in tune throughout the aggregate might be achieved by varying NT........the ability to control NT is a tool most serious competitors would not be willing to forego.
Are you letting the bushing float by not fully tightening the top. Also, some have claimed the number stamping on the bushing may cause problems....so install with numbers down.
Look at Harrell Precisions web site, they offer only bushing dies for a reason.

 

[BoydAllen]

I am pretty sure that short range benchrest competitors most commonly use bushing FL dies.
If you want the best bushings get carbide.
Your total neck thickness variance is much larger than it should be. (I expect and get better than +- .0001. With the right equipment I don't know how you would get as much as you are reporting, unless you have a measuring issue.)
What kind of concentricity do your loaded rounds have with the indicator reading about .150 out from the end of the case neck?
What sort of concentricity are you getting at the ends of fired case necks? Sized without bushing? With bushing?
How much does your die reduce the diameter of fired cases at the shoulder and at .200 above the head?
Just trying to get a fix on what is happening.

 

[LCazador]

Both Redding and Wilson bushings are tapered. So when you use a .260" diameter bushing with the numbers down, you will get about .0005" more neck tension. I think what Webster is seeing is that the bushing die is only sizing part of the neck and there is a different diameter at the top of the neck vs the bottom of the neck. Many serious benchrest competitors are using bushing bump dies that size the neck close to the shoulder and also bump the shoulder. Maybe what Webster is looking for is a bump die.

 

[LHSmith]

Both Redding and Wilson bushings are tapered. So when you use a .260" diameter bushing with the numbers down, you will get about .0005" more neck tension.

Again, I don't believe this is true- at least as designed they were not intended to have a taper (QC issues being what they are today). The Wilsons seem to always have a radius on the down side only, and should not be used upside down. The Reddings vary greatly as to how the ends are chamfered. Carbide bushings are available from other sources, and these may have a taper, but I doubt it. IIRC Redding advised (or advises) to insert the bushing number down to avoid concentricity problems due to their poor stamping method (Wilson, I believe, etches the size on the OD).

 

[BoydAllen]

The Wilsons give about a half thou. more sizing with the numbers down. I have done it and measured it. I am pretty sure that the numbers are on the ends of the Reddings. and if you want to try them, RCBS makes steel bushings both coated (dark gray) and uncoated. They have a reduced diameter band around their ODs where their sizes are stamped, where they cannot affect alignment. The steel bushings that I have measured with a neck mic, have variation in the distance between their ODs and IDs that varies considerably from bushing to bushing, even in the same brand. My one carbide bushing measures the same all the way around, and is only chamfered on one end. I am told that the reason that carbide bushings are more precise is that they are ground to size.

 

[fguffey]

Bushings and dies, bushings float, to float the bushing must be able to move and align, the beveled side down. Then there are ways to modify the design and reduce the part reloaders do not understand.

F. Guffey

 

[Mr rodent]

What type of neck turning tool did you use, are the necks turnd the same? if not you will have problems

 

[noload]

I would stick with the s type die and use a bushing giving no more than .002" nk tension. The neck dia. will be different throughout its lenght because the bushing does not go down all the way to the shoulder. Also if you try and reduce the fired neck size too much the brass movement there will have a tough time staying centered and true in diameter. Annealed necks will help reduce the irregular spring back. Measure your bushing to be sure the hole is centered. There is some slop in the die so it should center up. Don't lock it in place with the top screw let it float alittle. Pat

 

[Webster]

I would stick with the s type die and use a bushing giving no more than .002" nk tension. The neck dia. will be different throughout its lenght because the bushing does not go down all the way to the shoulder. Also if you try and reduce the fired neck size too much the brass movement there will have a tough time staying centered and true in diameter. Annealed necks will help reduce the irregular spring back. Measure your bushing to be sure the hole is centered. There is some slop in the die so it should center up. Don't lock it in place with the top screw let it float alittle. Pat

Your reply is the first one that understood what was going on. Many replied with statements that had nothing to do with the problem like: why you neck size, bushings might be tapered. My recent neck wall thickness measurements were taken after about 10 firings and donut removal twice. They may have been better than 0.0002" variation originaly? I coated the neck with soot to determine how far down it was sized, ~.153" sized, .150" unsized. The micrometer anvil is .159" in diameter. This means the micrometer anvil can be no more than half way on the neck or it will bridge the unsized area. I am getting numbers that make sense now. I really don't want any more replies. I will work it out my self.

 

[LHSmith]

As they say at BR matches between relays when a veteran competitor is asked an ambiguous question........"You'll figure it out." Shortrange Benchrest...those guys that almost universally load with bushing FL dies.

 

[fguffey]

Measure your bushing to be sure the hole is centered.

Your reply is the first one that understood what was going on. Many replied with statements that had nothing to do with the problem like

If the outside of the bushing is not supported by the countersunk hole in the die and the bushing is not secured when the die is screwed together it floats. If it floats it is centered by the case neck. It can not size all of the neck because it must be able to move to center.

F. Guffey