VLD's - Confused

[Travelor]

Can someone educate me about seating Berger VLD bullets to get accuracy?

I'm beating my head against a Savage 12 LRPV in 223 I purchased for my wife to shoot at 1000 yards. We have her first Match coming up in 3 weeks and at this point, I do not see this gun going with us. Initial 100 yard groups were in the realm of being one group around 1/2" and the next being over 2", alternating with no apparent reason. Just driving me nuts. All groups demonstrated vertical placement.

So far I have skim bedded it,it would just kind of wallow around in the factory bedding blocks), changed the firing pin spring out for a Wolfe 36 pound spring,was cratering primers with ANY load), and just found that it just hates to have the rear screw tightened much,just a blind hog thing that I found). Now 100 yard groups are alternating between 3/8" and 1" with Hornady 75 grain A-Max and 25.5 grains of Varget, but I am wanting to shoot the Berger for better retained velocity at 1000 yards.

Where I am at now is trying to get these danged Berger 75 grain VLD bullets to shoot well. I have never been able to figure out what VLD bullets like.

I called Berger and the nice lady I spoke with said her reference book says to seat them .010" off, at, and .010" into the lands and see which shoots best and fine tune form there,no difference in groups - awful). I also emailed Mr. Berger, but have not received a reply as yet.

Sorry for the long question

George

 

[billmo]

George,
Each rifle has it's own liking to VLD's. Sometimes you have to take the bullet hard into the lands,like .015 to .020 or try the same measurements away from the lands) These VLD type bullets can really try your patience sometimes. Also, I have been told by a gentleman just this morning that you may not never see the group that you want at 100 yds. He said that I needed to move out to 500 or 600 yds. to try to work on groups. I suppose that he is relating to the fact tha just because you see a certain group at 100 yds. does not mean that the same load will give the small or open groups at 500 or 600 yds. I am shooting the new Savage F-class Target rifle in 6.5 X 284 Norma and seeing low .300's at 100 yds. Hope this helps man. Bill

 

[ronemus]

I use the .223 for 1000 yard shooting. It can be done, but probably isn't the method of choice. My rifle is an AR-15 spacegun with a 28" barrel. Using warm loads, the .223 using the 75 gr Hornady A-Max is ballistically equivalent to the .308 with a Sierra 155, and is comfortably supersonic at 1000 with a 2950 fps muzzle velocity. That can be accomplished with loads under SAAMI maximum from a long barrel and only a bit over from a service rifle.

It's necessary to use a 1:7 twist to keep the A-Max stable to 1000 - with a 1:7.7 they would destabilize near the target on cold days. I don't know what the twist of the Savage factory barrel is, but it's easy enough to check. It's important to realize that the A-Max is longer than the Sierra 80 gr Matchking and thus requires a faster twist. Any bullet that will be supersonic at 1000 yards from the .223 will need a fast twist. You could use hot loads with 80 gr SMKs from a 1:7.7, but you would be well over SAAMI max pressure.

I've had the best luck using Vihta Vuori N-550 powder. My loads are only slightly compressed and pressures are moderate. Winchester primers seem to work best, giving the lowest velocity spreads. RL-15 wil also work, but with higher pressures and faster throat erosion. Either powder works best with WSR primers.

 

[Spotcheck_Billy]

Keep in mind that the 75 gr. A-Max can be a confusing bullet. Hornady saw fit to shorten this bullet and is now recommending a minimum 1-9" twist,printed right on the label of the box) instead of the 1-8" twist specified on the box containing the older version of this bullet!

Is your LRPV supposed to have a 1-9" twist barrel? You should probably measure the twist rate to be sure. Because the barrel is button rifled the twist rate can,and will) vary from one production run to another. A fellow shooter at our range measured his and came up with a 1-8.25" twist for his LRPV barrel. Apparently he's not alone, because there was a thread discussing this on the old savageshooters.net before it crashed and became a pay 'site.

If your barrel has a fast twist I'd recommend one of the heavier Berger VLD's for 1000 yds., pushed as fast as you can. Oh, and don't go by 100 yd. groups with a long range rifle/load combination. They'll fool ya. Try to test at 300 yds., 200 if that's not possible. You might be pleasantly surprised.

 

[Travelor]

Thanks fellows, I appreciate the time and thoughts in your replies.

My Savage does have a 1:7 twist. They can be had either 1:9 or 1:7.

It is intersting to look at N-550 on QuickLoad as it indeed shows better velocities with the same pressure. Interestingly it and Varget both show the same "potential of heat" of 4050 kj/kg which I have been told is indicative of throad erosion potential.

Now to just get the ***ed thing to shoot somethingreliably well. I have Hornady A-Max bullets in both 75 and 80 grains.

Care to share some loads? My email is on my profile.

Thanks again,
George

 

[ronemus]

Varget and N-550 may have the same energy content by weight, but N-550 has smaller grains and is denser - you can work up a max load without having to compress the powder. I'd recommend downloading the Vihta Vuori Reloading Guide if you're going to use N-550; they list N-540, which works well in a 20" AR barrel, but I get better velocity and lower pressure using N-550 in a 28" Krieger. The Alliant Reloading Guide lists a load using RL-15 that should work. I use moly-coated bullets, so my loads are ~1 gr heavier.

 

[EricStecker]

George,

To see whether the VLD is the culprit I have a box of the new 22 cal 76 gr BT bullets,non-VLD). I will be glad to send it to you. This bullet has proven to shoot well at just about any OAL and load. If you get poor results with this bullet I would start looking very closely at the rifle.

It is true that we are not going to make this particular bullet in an official run but if it works for you at least you will know that it is not a rifle problem. We will be making an 82 gr BT,non-VLD) that will shoot well in a 7" twist,don't have any right now or I'd send those).

Let me know if you want to try these by contacting me directly at eric.stecker@bergerbullets.com.

On a side note Walt was traveling for 10 days and could not get to his email. The number of emails he is responding to has piled up considerably. He is answering the oldest emails first so he will be responding to you as soon as he can.

Regards,
Eric

 

[playersc]

Those Berger Bullet guys are the greatest.

 

[billmo]

George,

To see whether the VLD is the culprit I have a box of the new 22 cal 76 gr BT bullets,non-VLD). I will be glad to send it to you. This bullet has proven to shoot well at just about any OAL and load. If you get poor results with this bullet I would start looking very closely at the rifle.

It is true that we are not going to make this particular bullet in an official run but if it works for you at least you will know that it is not a rifle problem. We will be making an 82 gr BT,non-VLD) that will shoot well in a 7" twist,don't have any right now or I'd send those).

Let me know if you want to try these by contacting me directly at eric.stecker@bergerbullets.com.

On a side note Walt was traveling for 10 days and could not get to his email. The number of emails he is responding to has piled up considerably. He is answering the oldest emails first so he will be responding to you as soon as he can.

Regards,
Eric

Eric,
Which of your bullets and powder type and charge do you reccomend for a 6mmAR built by Robert Whitley? Thanks, Bill

 

[EricStecker]

Bill,

For the best information you should contact Robert at 215-345-4181. He sells our 6mm 105 gr VLD along with some others so the 105 gr VLD may be a front runner. His web site is www.6mmar.com.

To All,

For general loading data you can email your cartridge and bullet to Walt Berger at bergerltd@aol.com. Walt will respond with a full spread of loading data. He has data for all the standard cartridges and some of the wildcats. If he has it you'll get it.

Regards,
Eric

 

[Kodiak99317]

IS YOUR RECOIL LUG TOUCHING ON THE BOTTOM?????????


Use a small piece of plasti-gauge,used by engine builders to check main bearing clerences), drop it into the recoil lug well and put the rifle back together and torque it as you usually do, then take it apart. If the guage is stuck to the recoil lug, there is not enough clerence there, mill out the well more or file the recoil lug shorter,off the bottom of it), a few strokes with a single bastard will fix it fast Put 45's on the square edges to remove any burrs too were you filled.