Very strange happenings while prepping 220 brass for 6ppc

[Markhor]

This is my first try at preparing 6ppc brass. I did the following for my .268 nk Bat used rifle.

- Ran all 220 brass through PMA .243 Iron.
- Turned the necks with the PMA neck turning tool to .013 thickness (this is same thickness as the brass that came with the rifle)
- Took the firing pin out of the bolt and put the brass in the chamber, some did not fit.
- I ran all though a redding body die. All brass now chambered fine.
- I expanded the necks again.
- Loaded a dummy brass with a .68gr Berger, it gave a loaded measurement of .266 and chambered fine.

So I think, I got it! I load all 20 pieces with 26gr N133 and the Bergers to fire form. On a second thought I decide to test a round in the chamber without the firing pin in the bolt, guess what? It won't fit. I try them all, on only one am i able to close the bolt, but the bullet gets stuck in the chamber spilling powder. Anyway, I measure the loaded rounds and the are now showing as .268 neck thickness. What happened??? I am a newbie and screwed up somewhere. Please let me know what I did wrong so I don't make the same mistake again.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[queen_stick]

2 things...

1) .243 + .026 = .269 ... you need to turn your necks down further to fit your .268 chamber.

2) you have your bullets seated long, which may make it difficult to chamber (after you correct the neck thickness) I know they're long, because they're jammed into the lands, and get stuck when you try to extract it... hence the powder all over your action

How are you measuring your neck thickness? Should be using a ball mic.

Walt

 

[Markhor]

Thanks Walt. I am using digital calipers to measure the thickness. I know it's not the proper tool but that's what I have until I get a tube mic. What do you think would be a good OAL to use for 68gr Bergers in 220 fire forming case? I was going by some PPC loaded 68gr that came with the rifle, they measure 1.045 if I remember correctly.

I will neck turn to a loaded round neck measurement of .266. Please let me know if this is what I should try for in a .268 nk rifle.

I would appreciate some advise from the vets.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[BoydAllen]

Any 1" mic. that measures to .0001 should get you going with an accurate measurement of the OD of your loaded round necks, over the base of the bullets. Put that caliper away. You can use the mic. to set up your turning tool by measuring test cases with seated bullets. It takes a little longer, but is actually more accurate, since tubing mics are somewhat technique sensitive, especially when used on soft materials. Use a very light touch on your mic.

 

[queen_stick]

Ed,

If Boyd Allen gives you advice, It's a good idea to listen

I've seen him preach the use of a good mic over calipers a bunch of times on this forum, and for good reason. However, you can get away with a caliper if you don't have a mic.

Your method of measuring the OD of the neck after seating a bullet is the best way to determine the actual size, as Boyd mentioned.

As far as determining how much clearance is best... that's something you'll have to play with. Try .002" clearance by getting the loaded rounds to .266, like you mentioned. If it shoots well, then keep using that. If you feel you could get some more accuracy out of it, one of many things you could try (aside from different bullets, powders, primers, rests, holds, and etc) is more clearance... .265 or .264. I don't own a PPC, so I don't know of any 'sweet spots' for clearance. On target rifles, .002 or .003 typically works (regardless of caliber). I've read articles on the subject, that claim anything less than .003" of clearance can cause problems... I don't know if that applies to the PPC.

Bottom line... cut your necks so you have a loaded round of .266 and see how it works. That's the minimum clearance I would want if it was me. (.001 isn't enough in my opinion, but people do it) .

Walt

 

[BoydAllen]

Many of the better shooters have gone to loaded round neck clearances between .002 and .003. Another thing, just because a digital caliper reads to .0005 is no indication if its accuracy. I prefer dial calipers to cheap digital ones. I also check them against a good mic. If you have a friend with a good mic, you might ask if he minds measuring some loaded rounds. Take along your calipers and compare what you get. Also look for consistency of repeated readings, and how technique affects outcome. A friend once told me that it is a good idea to close your eyes just before the final tightening of a mic. so that you won't try to make the number come out to what you want. Another way to use either calipers or a mic. is to hold or lock either at a setting and drag the object through the jaws/faces. This way you can get a feel that a straight reading will not give. I think that one of the reasons that some shooters are slow to buy micrometers is that they have no one to teach them how to read one. If anyone needs this help, PM me and I will work with you.

 

[SS427]

I will take a stab at this. Take your chamber dimension .268, minus desired clearence .002, minus caliber size at bullet pressure ring .2435, divide by 2 and that should give a start for neck wall thickness.

(.268-.002-.2435)/2=.01125

To be safe, and because even with a ball mic you can’t measure accurately to that thickness, I would round down to .0112.

I just fire formed my first 6PPC rounds and I jammed all the bullets. That was the advice I was given and I’m pretty sure I too used 26 grains of N133, loaded right to the bottom of the neck. Remember to oil the cases before you fire them. Mine fire formed perfectly and I didn’t get any signs of pressure at all.

 

[Markhor]

Thanks all. On Boyd's advise I have picked up a Mic. I will trim and measure to a .266 loaded measurement. I just need to figure out the OAL for 68gr Bergers now.

Thanks again for everyone's help. I will report my results soon.

Ed

 

[BoydAllen]

Big Attaboy!

 

[queen_stick]

What's funny, is that I still haven't picked up a mic! (after I told Markhor he should listen to Boyd!) Still using the caliper. Just thought of something to to add to my Christmas list!!!

 

[bozo699]

Calipers are great tools for there intended purposes, however if your trying to use them in place of a ball mic your results will be less then satisfactory as you already found and as Boyd stated a ball mic takes some getting used to, consistency is the key with them. I am new to the ppc myself and plan on doing some fireforming for the first time maybe this weekend, Boyd has already given me some great pointer on the subject but as per usual after reading one of Boyds post I have learned something else new, (A friend once told me that it is a good idea to close your eyes just before the final tightening of a mic. so that you won't try to make the number come out to what you want. Another way to use either calipers or a mic. )I have found with reading his posts if I don't learn something new or at least agree I re-read the post
Wayne.

 

[artbosco]

- I ran all though a redding body die.
- I expanded the necks again.
- I measure the loaded rounds and the are now showing as .268 neck thickness.

1. Why did you decide to skip Full Length sizing with a bushing die, in favor of only sizing the body?

2. What is your plan for applying neck tension to the bullet, if you not going to use bushings?

3. Why did you re-expand the necks?

4. Do you think the re-expanding may have caused your .268 measurement?

This might help. Modify at your discretion:

Reloading Steps:

New 220 Russian cases:
1. Don't touch Flash Hole leave it at .059".
2. Uniform primer pocket.
3. Deburr inside of primer flash hole.
4. Expand necks.
5. Turn necks.
6. Measure neck OD with a seated bullet at the pressure ring. Re-turn if needed.
7. Deburr, Chamfer and 0000 Steel Wool case neck.
8. Remove spring from Bolt and seat case in chamber.
9. Full length size if needed.
10. Prime.
11. Drop powder.
12. Seat bullet.
13. Check dimensions. For a .262 neck chamber, .260 is the goal with seated bullet.
14. Light oil outside of cases prior to fire forming the first time.
15. Fire Form.
16. Trim to length [1.490"].

Fired cases:
1. Clean case necks with NevrDull, 0000 Steel Wool or Metal Polish.
2. Inspect cases. Discard split necks and others with defects.
5. Lube for Full length sizing.
6. Resize and deprime.
7. Measure case length.
8. Clean primer pocket.
9. Nylon brush inside of case neck.
10. Prime.
11. Drop powder.
12. Seat bullet. Pay attention to seating depth.
13. Check neck OD with seated bullet.

 

[bozo699]

- I ran all though a redding body die.
- I expanded the necks again.
- I measure the loaded rounds and the are now showing as .268 neck thickness.

1. Why did you decide to skip Full Length sizing with a bushing die, in favor of only sizing the body?

2. What is your plan for applying neck tension to the bullet, if you not going to use bushings?

3. Why did you re-expand the necks?

4. Do you think the re-expanding may have caused your .268 measurement?

Outdoorsman,
Why would using a body die be a bad thing as long as he neck sized the brass when done?
mikecr would argue that f/l sizing is BAD but body sizing in conjunction with a neck die would be a GOOD thing, I am just asking not making a statement.
Wayne.

 

[artbosco]

Outdoorsman,
Why would using a body die be a bad thing as long as he neck sized the brass when done? mikecr would argue that f/l sizing is BAD but body sizing in conjunction with a neck die would be a GOOD thing, I am just asking not making a statement. Wayne.

Wayne,

I prefer to complete the body sizing, neck sizing and the application of neck tension for the 6PPC all at the same time, each and every time I resize. The same for my 30BR.

All of the F/L Custom Dies for the 6PPC and 30BR, that I'm aware of and use, are designed to move various portions of the case in very small increments [.0005" to .001"] all at once. I would rather do it all at the same time with a tool that was designed for that purpose.

Economically, I'd rather own one die that does the complete job each and every time I use it ... then two that perform half the task seperately.

If you use a body die and a neck sizing die, when would use them? Would you use one right after the other during the reloading process? Would you use one all the time, and the other after 5 firings, 10 firing? Only when you can't close the bolt? Would you use them intermittently? One after 2 firings, the other after 4 firing?

I'm suggesting that it makes things much simpler if the job is done all at once in very small increments especially when it comes to the 6PPC and 30BR. I must be on the right track because the Legend recommends it in his book too. My mentors, I'm thankful, pointed me in the right direction, with sound rationale, a long time ago, before THE book was even published. I own them a debt. They made my life simple.

 

[BoydAllen]

One problem with the "I'll neck size all of the time, combined with a body die when I need it." approach is that not all of your cases will get tight at the same time, and unless you plan on gauging each and every case, every time that you reload a set of cases, you are bound to have a situation where you are shooting a group and one or more cases has a different bolt close than the others. And when you do the group will enlarge. Many prejudices that exist about sizing of the bodies of cases come from long experience with dies that are a very poor fit to the chambers that they are used with. A properly dimensioned die is a whole other animal. We are so lucky that such good dies are available, for such a reasonable price, for the PPCs, BRs, and Dashers. Another alternative is to spec. our chamber reamers from sized cases, and in many calibers, that is the way to go, much less expensive, and easier to control than working from chamber to custom die.

 

[bozo699]

Boyd, and Outdoorsman,..
Thanks for the reply's, like I said earlier I am a newbie to the ppc family but not to reloading and I believe in consistency and I also believe to be consistent body sizing or f/l sizing is necessary and when I use a body die I use it every loading not just when the bolt is hard to close. I got lucky when I bought my ppc I got a Niel Jones f/l die with about 10 bushings so I hope I am good to go in that department. I didn't have big name mentors like you I guess Outdoorsman, although I have his book coming in the mail and can't wait to dig into it, although I do have a few world record holder's at the range I shoot at and a select few of you guy's here on 6br and BR central that mentor me and i really appreciate it, the only way I have to pay that back is a thank you and as your signature say's I try honoring you all by giving back to the sport when and where I can, thanks.
Wayne.

 

[Markhor]

Outdoorsman & Boyd, I am in the process of getting the Harrel FL die, sending him the 2 pieces of brass etc. In the meantime the body die was all that I had at the moment. I have a Wilson neck die but had a .268 bushing on it instead of a .264. Outdoorsman, the reason I used the body die was that the empty brass would not fit the chamber. After running them through the die, they did fit.

I am happy to report that last night I was able to prep and load 5 test rounds that all fit the chamber perfectly with the firing pin removed. I obviously had to neck turn the brass more and seat the bullet deeper. I measured the loaded rounds with my new mic at .266. I am ordering a .264 bushing for the Wilson today. I also ordered The Book yesterday. Hopefully will load some more today and go and shoot them on sat.

Thanks for all your help, could not have done it without your expert advise.

Ed

 

[bozo699]

Outdoorsman & Boyd, I am in the process of getting the Harrel FL die, sending him the 2 pieces of brass etc. In the meantime the body die was all that I had at the moment. I have a Wilson neck die but had a .268 bushing on it instead of a .264. Outdoorsman, the reason I used the body die was that the empty brass would not fit the chamber. After running them through the die, they did fit.

I am happy to report that last night I was able to prep and load 5 test rounds that all fit the chamber perfectly with the firing pin removed. I obviously had to neck turn the brass more and seat the bullet deeper. I measured the loaded rounds with my new mic at .266. I am ordering a .264 bushing for the Wilson today. I also ordered The Book yesterday. Hopefully will load some more today and go and shoot them on sat.

Thanks for all your help, could not have done it without your expert advise.

Ed

Ed,
You would have figured it out on your own, but by being headed in the right direction by guy's that have been there and done that already sure helps save some expensive brass and a lot of hair pulling, best of luck Ed, I'm right behind you, may start later today on my maiden voyage with the 6ppc.
Wayne.

 

[artbosco]

I am ordering a .264 bushing for the Wilson today. I also ordered The Book yesterday. Ed

Ed, If you're planning on using the predominant powder used with the 6PPC, Vhitavuori N-133, you might also acquire bushings that apply .003" and .004" of neck tension. Bushings which apply .003" and .004" seem to bring out the best in potential accuracy with the 6PPC, when 133 is used, and when the OD of the loaded round is .002" or more under the diameter of the neck chamber.

Your barrel will ultimately tell you what's best, but an additional .263" and .262" bushing will enhance your ability to fine tune along with seating depth changes.

 

[artbosco]

... when I bought my PPC I got a Niel Jones f/l die with about 10 bushings.

Wow! That's a lot of bushing. I suspect in the end you'll eventually narrow that down to 2 or 3, with one being used more, than the other two. Once you find the right powder/bullet/case/primer combination stick with it. Fine tune with neck tension and seating depth. Once you find the ultimate tune don't change it unless you change the powder lot.

Tony's book will cover all this stuff, and by purchasing it, you're well on the road to getting the most out of the PPC and having lots of fun.

My whole purpose in responding to questions in these forums on subjects that I'm familiar with, is to hopefully shorten someone's learning curve, prevent you from making the same mistakes I made, and maybe save some of the younger guys some money by recommending tools that do multiple tasks. This is not an inexpensive sport when you decide to move up; and it's also not rocket science.