Vender/Smith Rating Thread?

[Louisiana Shooter]

Would/could this be permitted here on these forums?

I am mostly a lurker here at this forum but I've been reading with great interest what some have had to say about various bad services, promises and such. Unfortunately, I don't know who is being spoken of exactly....So now it makes me a bit leary about who can be trusted.

I would also like to know who has had good service/products.

Why not start a thread or something that names names as well as what work or service was done or promised, then rate the service/product based on a five star system based upon your experience as a customer.


It would certainly benifit those good smiths and companies that really are trying to provide good service versus those who don't seem to care at all and are in it just to make a fast/easy buck.

I believe it would help us as shooters and MAY even cause the problem companies to straighten up. If they knew they were being held publicly accountable........maybe things will change.

I do most of my own smith work but not always, so it would be good to know who can be trusted versus those who can not.

 

[butchlambert]

I don't object to it if you post with your real name and if you have a gripe, make sure you have given both parties a chance to straighten out the problem first. I think that most problems are from communication.
Butch

 

[Louisiana Shooter]

I would agree completely.

 

[Aussie_bob]

Well i think its a dam good idea wihin reason.
I think this tread should be about companys we have a good service history with and the others can be mentioned elsewhere.And i will start it off from an overseas point of view.
I have had great service from Sinclair International over the years, Brownells, The Optice Zone, Harrells, Arcadian Sales, who a lot probably havent heard of,PAC-NOR barrels, Some companys don`t like to deal international because of the paperwork so i deal with the ones who want the business and have found some real gems along the way and many very helpfull people.
And this site is also a leader in information so i think there should be a place for praise for those who try to get your order out on time and if something goes adrift they call and tell you that its going to be late just a little bit of common consideration for others.

 

[Louisiana Shooter]

Perhaps a thread about positive experiences only,no negatives) would be enough, after seeing a thread where several people have had a good experience with a particular company or person, it gives me confidence as a shooter to use their services versus someone whom I don't know anything about.


I see one has been started.........excellent, now if people would just tell about their positive experiences for the rest of us.

 

[Jacob]

In an attempt to start a new thread. I propose nobody respond to any post, this needs to be a rule. We just tell it from our perspective and be done with it. Take it or leave it based on your past experience with that person and their previous posts. It is important that we don't get all bent out of shape and have to put our "two cents" in. What should we name the thread?

Vendor/Smith Rating Thread

I also think we should start a "good guy" list on the classifieds forum. What do y'all think about that?

+1 for the new thread

 

[billmo]

This hobby-sport whatever you want to label it turns a huge chunk of money to a lot of people. Most of us do this for fun. Our experiences with trying to get what we want within reasoning should not be disappointing and aggrevating. The biggest issue with this whole set of problems could easily be reduced to almost nothing if,and that is a big one) the communications are straight up between both parties,BUYER and SELLER)and everybody do what you tell a person you are going to do. Sometimes things go amiss, but a simple 2 min. phone call would be greatly appreciated and satisfactory with most people. Guys, this ain't no biggy to accomplish but no deal will work for anyone unless it is applied. Just my opinion, but I'm in business too and I know it works. I've done it for almost 15 years. Bill

 

[tightneck]

I think if a barrel maker tells you 6 weeks and it takes them 6 months I would be wondering why they can't look at the stack of orders in front of them and say right now we are months late on the 500 people in front of you.Right now the other phones are ringing off the hook because we are 4 months late on our 6 week estimates.
If there judgement is that bad up front what happens when it comes time to decide what is needed on your barrel.
Thanks for the heads-up as I now know who I'm not buying a new barrel from.
Lynn

Stuff happens. While I agree that 6 week quotes shouldn't turn into 6 months, things do happen. Earlier this year, I had ordered a Shilen in a light contour and it took 5 months for them to deliver. Is this the norm for Shilen, I think not. Turned out that they broke the button that was to be used to rifle this barrel. A new button needed making and it took a while for them to get the order filled. They normally turn an order around in 4 or 5 weeks. Turns out this barrel helped turn this rifle into the most accurate custom rig this guy ever had. It's shot groups that rival BR guns at 200yds and 300yds, in a DEER rifle. I also ordered about ten barrels from Bartlein at one time earlier this year. They told me that it would be about 6-8 weeks. That was about the time everyone was jumping on the bandwagon. Did I get any of my barrels in 6-8 weeks? No, they staggered in over a 10-16 week span. They are a growing company and didn't know how backed up they were getting. Were the barrels worth the wait? You're damn right they were, some of the best barrels I've had. I've ordered more since and will order more in the future. While no one wants to wait for anything in this day and age, waiting is not always a bad thing. Order well in advance and then if some component is a little behind, its not as big a deal.

 

[Jacob]

tightneck

I am not attacking you but I don't agree with this comment.

"While no one wants to wait for anything in this day and age, waiting is not always a bad thing. Order well in advance and then if some component is a little behind, its not as big a deal."

Although I do believe that our culture today is leaned towards instant gratification I do not believe this is whats going on in this case. It is about expectations. Most business owners will tell you that setting the right expectations is crucial to reaching your potential success. It is always better to deliver more than a customers expectations. You can deliver a great product but if the expectations are a great^2 product....then. Well you get it. That goes for service as well. Am I happy with my bat action? You bet. Am I happy that they quoted this and that I didn't get the action until mid February this year.

date May 9, 2006 9:07 AM
subject RE: BAT Machine Customer Receipt Order from Nick Jacob

Thank you for your order, we are about 4 months out on these actions right
now.

Bruce A Thom

Ph 208/687/0341
fax 208/687/1250

Thats over 6 months than they said. Every time I talked to them it was another 2 weeks. Most of y'all have been through this with some company or another so you know. Not to mention that they sent the wrong bolt,the ejector was on the wrong side). They handled that promptly. That being said next time I need an action I will look at other options where as if they managed my expectations better,ie. don't keep telling me 2 weeks for 6 months) I would have been a committed customer for life. No, am am not banning bat actions but I will not forget my experience with them. Things can change and I am open to that.

I had a great experience with Clay Spencer. His work and service is to be complemented.

Richard Franklin goofed up my stock a little bit,inletted for wrong action) but managed my expectations well and delivered a great product. It was an honest mistake and I am okay with that. His work and the way he handled it is also be be complemented.

I wish I could talk to everybody in person so that you could tell my actions have no malice in them. I am just relaying my experiences. Just like I would tell any friend in conversation.

So when are we going to start this thread and what are we going to call it?

Nick Jacob

 

[AlanPF]

BAD BAD IDEA!!

I run a shooting forum and the same idea was suggested to me - I didn't allow it and nor should 6mmBR. It has the potential to put small operators out of business for no good reason - most of us are in shooting as sport - the people this may affect could have their livelihoods severely damaged. It's too easy to criticise on a forum and often too hard to defend - mud sticks. If people want to avoid poor service or shonky dealers, they can always invite PMs on experiences with a particular individual or company. This way if an unfair accusation is made, it isn't broadcast to everyone in the world. Don't under-estimate the power of information on the web.

Alan

 

[chino1969]

Would/could this be permitted here on these forums?

Unfortunately, I don't know who is being spoken of exactly....So now it makes me a bit leary about who can be trusted.

I would also like to know who has had good service/products.

I do most of my own smith work but not always, so it would be good to know who can be trusted versus those who can not.

Read some of the other posts about shooters bashing companies before they even give the company a chance to correct the problem before you push too hard with this one! Not everyone is ethical and I think you'll find alot of people would rather blame a company's product rather than admit their own lack of skill or knowledge. You'll only get a one sided view which doesn't tell the whole picture and other people will hinge on this one person's opinion/experience which may not be accurate or fair to the company or gunsmith. The way I see it is give the company and/or gunsmith a chance to rectify the problem before you get on an internet website and start bashing them. We don't know who you are, what your real name is, what your education or skill level is and you can hide behind bad--- sounding names like Gunslinger or SniperX while defaming known manufacturers or gunsmiths. Their sales may suffer and you don't have to provide any credibility or proof of what you are claiming to be true. There is another side to this and that is the issue of defamation of character and the resultant lawsuit. Suppose someone badmouths a gunsmith on this site and he loses a substantial amount of business as a result. The poster stands to lose nothing while the gunsmith will suffer. What's to keep lowlifes from posting false threads because they don't like a particular company or smith? I don't think this excellent website needs that potential headache. In my humble opinion, it's a bad idea.
Chino69

 

[billmo]

I agree when a product is found defective the vendor or manf. should be given the chance to make it right before bad mouthing them. After they say no or do nothing to try to solve the problem is the time to let people know about the situation. But, at the same time telling a customer that something will be done and six months passes, and nothing happens is not acceptable either. Bill

 

[Jacob]

Y'all have a point. I can see where this may get pout of hand. I would hate to see people bashing one another but this may be inevitable. Its a shame because I really like the concept of the thread. Would it work with a couple of rules in place and a moderator? Probably to much trouble. Besides even for the majority of us who are honest, every once in a small small while we don't get our story right. Nick

 

[rstreich]

Jacob,

Don't take this personally, I'm just using your post as an example, because it illustrates perfectly why I would never want to see some sort of rating/review system in place on a forum.

There are really only two criteria I care about when I go to one of the,fortunately for us) many vendors of custom gun products or gunsmiths: the quality of their work and the fairness of their price. I haven't and wouldn't select a product or service from someone who was known only for their ability to meet a schedule.

As tightneck pointed out, things happen. We are truly fortunate that we have so many choices in what is in reality a niche industry. That means we have a bunch of small shops, but they are shops that put out some really high-quality work with some very expensive equipment. In such small shops, equipment breakdowns, sickness, etc. can cause large delays in production. For a lot of shops, they're dependent on some other small specialty shop for performing some of the operations, so they're somewhat at the mercy of a third-party.

Even without breakdowns, severe disruptions can come from success--trying to increase the production of a small shop that is so dependent on a handful of highly-skilled craftsmen can be a daunting and sometimes disastrous challenge.

You may understand and accept the fact that sh#t happens, but a lot of people wouldn't. They'd promptly go out and put out some negative review of a vendor based simply on that fact.

The usual response to the above is that they should be better at communicating with their customers to let them know that they are running behind and won't meet their estimated delivery time. Well, personally, I don't want them sitting around adjusting some Gantt chart or the like trying to determine whether they're falling behind on some of their estimated delivery times. Nor do I want them to spend a couple of days on the phone every couple of weeks to update a hundred customers with their new delivery times. I want them back in their shop working on the orders,preferably sweating a bit) that are in line ahead of me. And I also don't want them to hire anyone to run their scheduling software or make their phone calls 'cause I don't want to have to pay for that person with the increased prices.

Perhaps the most important thing I've learned when it comes to having custom guns built is to never, ever schedule anything that depends on having a gun that is currently in some form of production ready by a certain time.

And one more thing on the "customer service" vein: Many of these shops are owned and operated by some exceptionally-skilled machinists. If there's one common personality trait that I've noticed among this group, it's the fact that sometimes they can be downright curmudgeons. But then, I didn't send them my business for their people skills. If they seem to be in a bad mood when I call, I just keep the conversation brief and call back another time. Despite the occasional gruff attitudes, I can honestly say that I have never seen another industry that places so much faith in their customers. I can't even count the number of times I've called up one of these occasional curmudgeons to purchase one of their products for the first time and they've simply asked me to send them a check when I got the product. Now that's what I call customer service!

Even if you disagree with all of the above,jeez, there's getting to be a lot now isn't there), how would you manage such a review system and who would administer it? How would you verify that someone who had put up a review, had ever even done business with the company they're reviewing. How would the company refute concocted reviews? Even when you read through some of the relatively straightforward product reviews on the sites that have them, you get a lot of people who have never even held the product in their hands putting up a review.

If you want to know who makes the best framboozler, just ask. If you want to know who's the best at tuning framboozlers, just ask. They're are a lot of helpful people on these forums who'll give you advice and recommendations.

There are companies and individuals out there who perform shoddy work or have dishonest business practices. This is a pretty small community, however, and word gets around pretty fast. They usually aren't in business very long. I'd just hate to see the good ones get hammered or even put out of business by a few difficult situations.

robert

 

[Jacob]

All good points. Maybe this isn't such a good idea. Nick

 

[ReedG]

On the surface, I agree with most of your post, Robert. But I still do not like being lied to or strung along, especially when I pay up front. Gunsmiths are not gods, they're under no more pressure than anybody else in business, and sooner or later there has to be some sort of accountability. I want them in the shop working and not doing "administrative" crap, but the best gunsmith work in the world isn't worth much if you aren't credible in marketing it. And when I do call and they do answer the phone, tell me the truth. I'm a real person, I don't rant and rave, and I understand real situations.

When I had my dream rifle built I worked with some of the best people in the industry. Ian Robertson of Robertson Composites is on a short list of the best-of-the-best. The big-name gunsmith I had picked for the job lied to me for months about my stock: saying it was "backordered"; saying it had come in but was the wrong color, etc.,from May to November). Finally, after he jumped ship and those left behind had to pick up the pieces we found that my stock had never even been ordered. A call to Ian elicited a "I'll get you out one just as soon as I can" ... and he did. I'm very grateful.

Jim Borden of Borden Accuracy went out of his way to accommodate getting me a rifle built in time for the season after the other 'smith had dropped the ball after months of bald-faced lies. Jim built me the most beautiful BR rifle in the world using other vendors pieces and his own exceptional talents. One of my friends said, "You asked Jim to build you a gun on a BAT action???" No. Jim volunteered to build me a gun on a BAT action because he understood the situation and wanted to help. Thank you, my friend.

I know gunsmiths are busy. I'm happy for them that they are. But that does not excuse sloppy record-keeping or smoke-and-mirror dealings with their customers.

Having said that, I do not believe a thread to post "goods" and "bads" about dealing with gunsmiths or suppliers is going to be a very constructive endeavor. One bad report can hurt a good supplier or gunsmith for a long time, and may not even be warranted. I could write 20 paragraphs about my dealings with a "bad" gunsmith -- yet other posts have touted this same guy as having built them a great rifle and they revered him.

As unfortunate as it may be, the reality is that getting a complete firearm built by a top-ranked 'smith is a long, dragged-out process. They have to deal with metal treating facilities where they may be "small fish" and cannot command quick service; they have to fend in a world of supply and demand where supply seldom meets demand. And most of their work in slow and tedious because the quality we and they demand does not lend itself to mass production.

If we're voting on a thread to "dis" gunsmiths, vendors, suppliers ... my vote is "No".

 

[Louisiana Shooter]

After reading everything that has been said both for and against this type of thread I think we could take some of the good ideas that have been presented here and see if we could all come to some type of agreement about this.

I would have to agree that someone posting negative info about about an experience they had could have an overly adverse effect on said persons or companies business. I might add, they MAY deserve it. They MAY not either though. Anyone who's been in business very long KNOWS things go wrong. The actions that are taken to remedy the situation will usually decide on our satisfation as a customer........and some of us will never be satisfied no matter what happens.

Someone mentioned lawsuits, this site certainly does not need this to happen.......it too good of a site to risk this. I think we would all agree on this.

I would like to propose this:

If we have questions concerning a business/smith, post questions concerning the type of work or product of interest and request PM's concerning it. DO NOT POST NEGETIVES OPENLY HERE ON THE SITE FOR ALL TO SEE. That way, we can keep each other informed with out involving this forum directly and putting it at risk.,I'm not a lawyer and don't know if the site really is at risk, but in these days and times I'ld rather not take a chance, we've all seen stranger things happen with lawyers and courts)

On the other hand, if we as shooters would post about the POSITIVE experiences we have had from variuos smiths/business then that would be a BIG plus for them and encourage more people to do business with them. They, in turn would be able to continue to get the business that they rightly deserve to get.

I know when I read about someones pet project coming out good, then I would really like to know who did the work. I would rather spend a little more money,sometimes a LOT more) and invest more time to get what I want than to not know for sure if I can trust the person/company involved. When I see that multiple people have had a good experience with a person/company then I am confident I too will be well treated.

The more positives the more confidence I will have as a customer.

If the companies that we do business with are keeping up with this site and see this type of thing happening here, it should cause them to make a real effort at giving us excellent service/products.

Word of mouth is the BEST advertising you can get! And it's usually free, as it would be in this case.

We could start a thread like "excellent service/product" and post our review there.

 

[rstreich]

I agree with you, Reed. I know there are gunsmiths out there, even big-name smiths, that operate like you described. I've been fortunate in that regard. I've had hiccups happen, but they were all taken care of with a minimum of fuss. And they never lie to me about when they'll get something done--sometimes 'cause they won't tell me, but usually 'cause I just don't ask.

My biggest concern with such a rating system is that it doesn't rate the customer in turn. Reading between the lines of your post a bit, I think you agree with this.

I have a little story in my pocket about the kind of customer I'm afraid of. I called Krieger one day to see if I could still change an order that I had made:

"Mike, can I still change the twist rate on that XYZ barrel that I ordered?"

"Just a second, Robert. Let me see where it's at."

"Sorry, Robert. Your barrel is already in rifling."

"Well, Mike, couldn't you just stretch it out to make the twist slower?"

Silence.

I was only joking,in Minnesota we have to tease the cheeseheads whenever we get a chance--they have the Packers and we have the Vikings). Apparently others had made similar requests. They weren't joking and they weren't happy when their requests couldn't be accomodated.

In principle, what could work would be a positive only rating system. Like a running poll. When you have a positive comment for some vendor, you go and place a vote for them. It would be a way to implement what Apache suggests and provide a way to collect up all of the votes that are in the other "positive" thread. I say "in principle," however, because you still can't qualify who's doing the voting without a lot of administrative effort.

robert

p.s. BTW, I agree that Jim Borden is a great guy.

 

[AlanPF]

I came in fairly hard against the proposal in an earlier post. After reading all the posts since, and seeing the general level of respect fairness and commonsense shown by the posters, I'm almost ready to do a backflip and support the idea ! However, it would only take a minority of unthinking or unscrupulous members to abuse the privilege and turn the whole thing pear-shaped, which is a shame. Its an unfortunate situation where the lowest common denominator is what decides it.

Alan

 

[billmo]

After reading over all that has been said about the pros and cons of this decision, I see something that we humans all are giulty of. Everybody wants to go to Heaven by nobody wants to die. We want to find out everything we can in order for us to make the right decision when the time comes to build a rifle but somehow we want to gain that knowledge without it being told. And we all know better. Can't happen. Some have said tell it in a private message. Some have said put it on the forum. The plain truth of the matter is if you gonna open up and talk about the problems here, good, bad, or indifferent sooner or later the word will get around. Just might take a little longer in some cases but Joe tells Rob, Rob tells Bill, Bill tells Frank and so the story goes. So, if the group decides to post experiences really don't make much difference since everybody will hear it sooner or later anyway. Just an observation. You decide. Bill