Velocity difference in standard .308 Lapua Brass vs .308 Palma Brass

[ARIZONA_F_CLASS]

I use to have a perfect waterline with standard .308 Lapua brass. With 41.9gr varget. The velocity avg. was 2,535 and ES was 21fps.

Now with the palma brass I am shooting 42.4gn varget. The velocity avg. is 2,510. The ES is 5fps. But the waterline is not there. Nice little groups, but no perfect waterline. And not the same velocity.

It seems to me that you can not get a higher velocity in palma brass as you can in standard lapua brass.

Am I right?

 

[jonbearman]

What is a waterline? If this is what you found then you seem to have answered your own question. You could do a volume test with water and weighing the case as you fill it up with water or alcohol instead.

 

[ARIZONA_F_CLASS]

This is my waterline with my .223 at 500 yards. A waterline is a near perfect vertical.

 

[Fordnutter]

the main advantage with Palma brass is that if you are loading towards a high pressure node the brass last's considerable longer when it comes to loosening primer pockets over the standard stuff. If you dissect a case your'l find a nice heavy case web that resists stretching a little better. If your running moderate loads I don't think there would be any advantages at all.

 

[DHD]

Having used both cases for years, I have found that you need to step on the Palma brass a little more, as you obviously have figured out. I use 450 primers only in the Palma brass and find my ES to be very low. I really haven't seen any big accuracy improvement with the Palma brass, but case life is a big plus.

I reformed my first 100 pieces of Palma brass to 6.5Creedmoor after 7 firings and it is on it's 3rd firing in it's new form. It was a lot of work, but is good stuff.....

 

[mysticplayer]

Have you tried adding more powder with the palma brass load?

Why did you stop where you did?

Smaller spark, less energy... has to be made up some where and that usually means more fuel... If you can ignite it properly.

Jerry

 

[Erik Cortina]

A waterline is a near perfect vertical.

No, waterline is an imaginary horizontal line across the center of the target.

 

[Erik Cortina]

Adjust your seating depth and you can "fix" it.

BTW, the 500 yard target you posted is very sensitive to wind, not the ideal thing to have.

 

[ARIZONA_F_CLASS]

Adjust your seating depth and you can "fix" it.

BTW, the 500 yard target you posted is very sensitive to wind, not the ideal thing to have.

I shot 5 shots then had him mark them. And he said it was 12345 from left to right.

 

[ARIZONA_F_CLASS]

Found several nodes finally!!! Palma brass likes to eat powder. Found 42.9 at 2,520fps and 43.3 at 2,500fps Shot consistent 1" groups at 500 yards yesterday with no pressure problems. That sounds crazy especially with a 208gr bullet.

 

[jonbearman]

Erik thank you for clearing up what waterline actually means,it is good to learn more and more by the day. Isnt that a horizontal line?

 

[mysticplayer]

Found several nodes finally!!! Palma brass likes to eat powder. Found 42.9 at 2,520fps and 43.3 at 2,500fps Shot consistent 1" groups at 500 yards yesterday with no pressure problems. That sounds crazy especially with a 208gr bullet.

Glad adding more fuel solved the problem. That velocity is certainly not weird in a long barrel long throat FTR. Nice shooting.

If the velocity does drop at 43.3gr, I would stick with the 42.9gr or maybe 43.0gr load.

Nice work with the 223 as well. That is hard to do with a case that small. You must have very good control over your powder charges.

And for me, waterline is a group with very low vertical.... ideally placed across the X ring but sometimes....

Jerry

 

[ARIZONA_F_CLASS]

I think I finally know what I am going to shoot. Because I am running out of time. 3 different loads and the white dots were the best at 1000 yards. It was also the slowest of the 2,527 with a 15ES 25 shot group vs 2,535 and 2,544.

 

[ARIZONA_F_CLASS]

Found several nodes finally!!! Palma brass likes to eat powder. Found 42.9 at 2,520fps and 43.3 at 2,500fps Shot consistent 1" groups at 500 yards yesterday with no pressure problems. That sounds crazy especially with a 208gr bullet.

Glad adding more fuel solved the problem. That velocity is certainly not weird in a long barrel long throat FTR. Nice shooting.

If the velocity does drop at 43.3gr, I would stick with the 42.9gr or maybe 43.0gr load.

Nice work with the 223 as well. That is hard to do with a case that small. You must have very good control over your powder charges.

And for me, waterline is a group with very low vertical.... ideally placed across the X ring but sometimes....

Jerry

Thanks Jerry,

Yup the 42.9 was the winner. The velocity didn't drop with the hotter loads but the accuracy did. And I agree with you on the definition of a waterline. And thanks on the .223 waterline. I weigh the powder to the kernel.

Best Regards
Rocky

 

[mattt]

Your 223 has a better water line then your 308.Go with the 223

 

[mysticplayer]

I think I finally know what I am going to shoot. Because I am running out of time. 3 different loads and the white dots were the best at 1000 yards. It was also the slowest of the 2,527 with a 15ES 25 shot group vs 2,535 and 2,544.

Nice shooting. Assume you had a moderate mirage day with light'ish winds?

You will never notice 20fps in muzzle velocity. Assume you will be at the AZ championships/US Nats this month? Say hi as I will be coming down to shoot too.

Hope the winds don't get up to 30MPH like last year historical data

Jerry

 

[Erik Cortina]

And for me, waterline is a group with very low vertical.... ideally placed across the X ring but sometimes....

Jerry

Jerry, so by your and Rocky's definition of waterline, you can have a group with no vertical at all low on the 6 ring and say that you held great waterline?

Like I said before, waterline is an imaginary horizontal line across the center of the target. You will often hear shooters say things like "...waterline 8" as opposed to a "vertical 8" when describing where their shot impacted on the target.

 

[ARIZONA_F_CLASS]

My old load, different lot of powder and different brass. To me that is a perfect 5 shot waterline for vertical testing at 500 yards. But someone from Texas would disagree because I didn't hit the dot.

 

[Erik Cortina]

To me that is a perfect 5 shot waterline for vertical testing at 500 yards. But someone from Texas would disagree because I didn't hit the dot.

No, I'll disagree with you because you are using incorrect terminology and because you are wrong!

Hitting the dot has nothing to do with waterline. If you had hit to the right of the dot but still lined up with the dot, you would have perfect waterline. Your so called "perfect waterline" group is actually below waterline in your example.

Waterline is not the group, it's a reference mark on the target. A target has a "waterline" even before you take a single shot on it.

 

[ARIZONA_F_CLASS]

To me that is a perfect 5 shot waterline for vertical testing at 500 yards. But someone from Texas would disagree because I didn't hit the dot.

No, I'll disagree with you because you are using incorrect terminology and because you are wrong!

Hitting the dot has nothing to do with waterline. If you had hit to the right of the dot but still lined up with the dot, you would have perfect waterline. Your so called "perfect waterline" group is actually below waterline in your example.

Waterline is not the group, it's a reference mark on the target. A target has a "waterline" even before you take a single shot on it.

Well hell I should quit now, If I already have a perfect waterline without even taking a shot!!! Thanks Erik, That will save me lots of time and money.