Useless Chronographs!

[M14AMU]

Take time to read the below article!

http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2010/07/statistics-for-rifle-shooters.html

Over many years it has been my conclusion that accuracy comes NOT from testing with the chronograph; rather what shows up CONSISTENTLY on the face of the target! And the last two sentences of this authors info just confirms my thinking!

QUOTE

" Finally, an additional caveat: the true measure of the accuracy potential of a load should be measured not on the chronograph but on the target paper at the intended full range. However, when evaluating group sizes, please remember to use sufficient samples to draw a statistically valid conclusion… "

 

[Chuckhunter]

I think most competitive shooters, whether it be short range or long range, develop their loads on Target and at their distance of competition before strapping on a Chronograph. I sometimes use it to help me make a decision on two loads that are almost impossible to evaluate by target samples alone. I also use it to check on velocity changes when switching lots of powder. Also great to evaluate which powders are more temperature sensitive. Did you ever have a load that shot great one time and not the next, a chronograph can give you insight as to what is taking place when that round goes bang. Some good points in the article and a good read but I'll continue to use my chronograph if for no other reason than false confidence. Competitive Shooters all know one thing, a confident shooter is usually a guy to keep your eye on.

 

[LCazador]

IMHO, a chronograph is invaluable in correlating target work with downrange ballistics. In conjunction with my computer ballistics program, I can't imagine working up a load without one!!

 

[jonbearman]

What an eye opener that article is,we spend way to much time worrying about much ado of nothing.

(This is my form of sarcasm,we dont know how this writer did any of his loading and techniques etc,I agree he had some valid points but I dont think this was a study in how good they work but a study of statistics like the type of studys in a lab where conditions are perfect)

 

[jlow]

LOL! Seems like I just had a conversation with someone else about this very topic. Here is my two cents on the logic of this thinking.

Let’s just say that you have a process you are trying to evaluate. The process is a 10 step process and the end product will only work if all ten steps are carried out properly. Any misstep in one of the process will affect the quality of the end product. If you are trying your best to produce that perfect final product, what method do you think will help you get there fastest and most efficiently?

Do you:

1) Change various steps but don’t evaluate the effects of the changes other than the quality of the end product?

2) Go from step 1 to 10 evaluating how well each step is working plus the quality of the end product so that if the end product is not good, you know which step might be the cause of the potential problem and you go fix it, evaluation both how the fix affect that step and the final product?

I can tell you that anyone who has gone through this type of trouble shooting methods as a day job will choose the second option because it is much more logical and efficient.

The author clearly believes in the usefulness of the chronograph. What he is trying to say is despite the fact that it is useful, it is not the ultimate proof and you need to confirm with results from the final step which is at the range. Overly reliance on the results from the chronograph should be avoided but ignoring good data that gives you hints as to what your problems would be equally bad.

 

[stool]

its just another tool in my tool box.
like all tools,
IT IS ONLY AS GOOD AS THE USER,

 

[jlow]

That’s correct. Most people who are frustrated with the tools they use happen because one or more of the following is true:

1. They are using the wrong tool.
2. They are using defective or inaccurate tools.
3. They don’t actually know how to use the tool.
4. They don’t understand how to interpret the data the tool gives them.
5. They don’t understand what the tool is actually measuring.
6. They don’t understand what the results from the tool is telling them.

One or more of these applies to all of us....

 

[Lapua40X]

My personal favorite lines:

[quote author=Statistics for Rifle Shooters
by: Jerry Engelman
March 21, 2003]
"... with the remaining 4 or 5 ounces of powder from the 2 eight pound jugs and the 75 or so shots I have left in the new barrel before it gives out, I will go shoot a 600yd match before I start all over again."
[/quote]

The product of analysis paralysis.

 

[Steve Blair]

Results are only as good as the tool and operator used to produce them. Chronographs are misused just as much, if not more, than any other tool. Many of them produce unreliable data. If a quality chronograph is used properly, it produces very valuable, reliable data. [br]
I do all my load development at 100 yards over a Kurzzeit chronograph. After charge weight, seating depth and tuner setting; a 25 shot string fired in 12.5 minutes over the chronograph. If it holds accuracy and ES, I am ready for a match. At the recent Berger SW LR Nationals, a load developed as above for my .300 WSM lost not one point in 125 record shots to elevation. All points lost were windage and my fault. My Kurzzeit is not my only tool, but I would not like to be without it. [br]
It is entirely possible to accomplish the same result with targets alone, if you have the right facility. I do not and developed this approach to make the best of what is available to me. I believe German was still shooting sling when that article was written and he validated loads at 500 yards with sling and irons. German is an outstanding shooter and his approach worked for him. I would not use that approach for F-Open loads.

 

[Jay Christopherson]

Results are only as good as the tool and operator used to produce them. Chronographs are misused just as much, if not more, than any other tool. Many of them produce unreliable data. If a quality chronograph is used properly, it produces very valuable, reliable data. [br]

+1.

I also use a Kurzzeit. You get what you pay for - and unreliable can just as easily mean "how come all my loads show single digit E.S., but result in terrible vertical". Bad data will have you chasing your tail.

 

[watercam]

Yes, absolutely, couldn't agree more.
Where they are valuable would be to help one get in the ballpark when a 1000 yard range is only available during matches. When one has a load with acceptable ES and SD, acceptable velocity to be assured of staying super sonic at 1K and acceptable on-paper vertical as far out as one has a range to work with, one may have a fighting chance when a 1000 yard shooting opportunity comes one's way. Final load analysis remains on paper but there are a few details where a chronograph helps. A lot...

 

[nosualc]

You cannot optimize what you cannot measure.

A chrono is just a measurement tool. One of the few available to an average shooter.

Like all data, you can use it, or you can let it paralyze you.

-nosualc

 

[CaptainMal]

Used my chronograph to solve a major problem. Normal Dasher load started expanding case heads and blowing primers. Kept reducing the load and had many attendant issues. Trashed almost a 100 new Lapua cases in the process. Shot through the chronograph and saw a reduced powder charge with high pressure give high velocity.

A borrowed borescope showed the carbon fouling from hell.

During the long and arduous cleaning process or trash the barrel, the chronograph followed the progress. The more I cleaned the lower the velocity was. Now I'm building the loads back up and hoping to get back to a reasonable velocity with no pressure signs.

The chronograph is good.

 

[amlevin]

I think that there are people way too wrapped up in "picking fly poop out of ground pepper". They live by the ES and SD readings they see on their chronograph(s).

If shooting short ranges and always at known distances, a chronograph is probably just another waste of money. If trying to develop loads for a wide range of distances, and need a reliable speed for their ballistic's calculations, it can be an invaluable tool.

Paper results are important but unless you want to shoot at targets spaced every 100 yards, all the way out to whatever distance your rifle/ammo are capable of, and then record the DOPE for each distance, a chronograph can sure save a lot of components and barrel life.

Most of the good-great shooters I know just bring out the chronograph when they break open a new lot # of powder.

 

[jlow]

I chrono every round I shoot if it is possible. If you are already shooting and testing and spending the money, so why throw away free data if it might help you now or later.

 

[M14AMU]

I think that there are people way too wrapped up in "picking fly poop out of ground pepper". They live by the ES and SD readings they see on their chronograph(s).

If shooting short ranges and always at known distances, a chronograph is probably just another waste of money. If trying to develop loads for a wide range of distances, and need a reliable speed for their ballistic's calculations, it can be an invaluable tool.

Paper results are important but unless you want to shoot at targets spaced every 100 yards, all the way out to whatever distance your rifle/ammo are capable of, and then record the DOPE for each distance, a chronograph can sure save a lot of components and barrel life.

Most of the good-great shooters I know just bring out the chronograph when they break open a new lot # of powder.

"picking fly poop out of ground pepper"

;D ;D ;D

 

[howabouttheiris]

With all the other variables in the shooter/air/wind, can anyone name a better judgment of your consistency in reloading than a chronograph?

While it may not be able to say what is ultimately liked by your barrel, what is best in your shooting conditions, what performs best downrange, .... if you have the same fps coming out of the barrel, you are giving yourself the best chance of having believable data at the target and elsewhere.

 

[amlevin]

I chrono every round I shoot if it is possible. If you are already shooting and testing and spending the money, so why throw away free data if it might help you now or later.

If you're a data junkie I guess.

I've found that the more shots over a chronograph, the greater the probability that you'll end up shooting it 8) 8)

By now I'll bet you've noticed that every time you shoot the same ammo, the results are different. Weather, height of the sun, distance from rifle, et al.

 

[Steve Blair]

If you're a data junkie I guess.

I've found that the more shots over a chronograph, the greater the probability that you'll end up shooting it 8) 8)

By now I'll bet you've noticed that every time you shoot the same ammo, the results are different. Weather, height of the sun, distance from rifle, et al.

[br]
I don't notice that at all. Last summer, my .300 WSM load produced ~2865 and ES 6-9 fps. Removed the barrel after Raton and reinstalled it in January for Berger. Assembled cartridges using the same compenents in 30° cooler weather and produced ~2854 and ES 6-9 fps. The rifle shot accordingly at Berger. I have never shot a chronograph and use it for all load development. My Kurzzeit can be used in total darkness, so is not affected by whatever light is or is not available. If you use accurate instruments, accurate data can be obtained. If you don't, well...

 

[jlow]

I chrono every round I shoot if it is possible. If you are already shooting and testing and spending the money, so why throw away free data if it might help you now or later.

If you're a data junkie I guess.

I've found that the more shots over a chronograph, the greater the probability that you'll end up shooting it 8) 8)

By now I'll bet you've noticed that every time you shoot the same ammo, the results are different. Weather, height of the sun, distance from rifle, et al.

Data junkie – LOL! Only people who has no experience with scientific methods usually have that response...

It does of course increase your chance that you will shoot the chrono as that is just statistics. However, if you know how to set it up properly, you will significantly decrease you chance of hitting it. The fact is I did not buy a chrono to keep it in the basement because I am afraid I will do the wrong thing.

Like Steve said, not at all in terms of the results… A good chrono set up properly and used properly will give you consistent reliable results. Please go through the list in my reply#6 and stop blaming your chrono for your own faults– LOL!