Unscrew the brush at the muzzle?
- Thread starter BoydAllen
- Start date
I always felt like I should. But it would be a major hassle, so I don't.
I even thought about grooving my rods for an o-ring about 4" back from the threads to help center the tip on exit and re-entry w/regard to the muzzle. Just haven't had the guts to do so on my coated rods. Makes sense doesn't it? Protect the rod, potentially damage my barrel!!
I even thought about grooving my rods for an o-ring about 4" back from the threads to help center the tip on exit and re-entry w/regard to the muzzle. Just haven't had the guts to do so on my coated rods. Makes sense doesn't it? Protect the rod, potentially damage my barrel!!
Forum Boss
Administrator
Always. Even with most pistol barrels. If you use Wipe-Out you'll only need to run that brush through 3-4 times anyway, with a custom barrel.
Slip a rubber or nylon sleeve over the exposed thread or brass adapter before drawing back up the bore. Real belt & braces stuff but if you're going to be this particular might as well do it right.:angel:
Klenchblaize
Klenchblaize
Boyd
What I have done is change to the bristle brushes such as the ones sold by Montana Extreme. They can be short stroked anywhere in the barrel. Combined with Bore Creme, JB, or a solvent of your choice you can concentrate your effort on the two areas needing the most attention, the throat and the muzzle. JMHO
Ray
What I have done is change to the bristle brushes such as the ones sold by Montana Extreme. They can be short stroked anywhere in the barrel. Combined with Bore Creme, JB, or a solvent of your choice you can concentrate your effort on the two areas needing the most attention, the throat and the muzzle. JMHO
Ray
Forum Boss
Administrator
I know Jason feels it is unnecessary to unscrew the brush but consider these points...
1. It takes no more time or effort to remove the brush and re-attach it than to remove/replace a patch.
2. You should be cleaning the brush before each pass through the bore anyway.
3. By reversing the brush you are dragging the debris you just attempted to remove back into the bore
4. The gunk on the bore brush will now be carried back down into the rod bore guide, where it will be deposited on your subsequent "clean" patches and brushes.
5. And, as noted in the article on this site, Tim North of Broughton Barrels, says don't ever do it,reverse the brush) with a bronze brush. He's examined crowns with magnifying lenses and he's convinced you will put micro-scratches in the very end of the barrel.
6. If you can easily reverse a brush, even a nylon one, it is probably too loose in the first place.
7. With a good custom barrel we would be surprised if you really NEED to send a bronze brush through the barrel more than a half-dozen or so times. Given that fact, how much time/effort are you really saving by running it both ways?,Removing moly may be a different story, however).
1. It takes no more time or effort to remove the brush and re-attach it than to remove/replace a patch.
2. You should be cleaning the brush before each pass through the bore anyway.
3. By reversing the brush you are dragging the debris you just attempted to remove back into the bore
4. The gunk on the bore brush will now be carried back down into the rod bore guide, where it will be deposited on your subsequent "clean" patches and brushes.
5. And, as noted in the article on this site, Tim North of Broughton Barrels, says don't ever do it,reverse the brush) with a bronze brush. He's examined crowns with magnifying lenses and he's convinced you will put micro-scratches in the very end of the barrel.
6. If you can easily reverse a brush, even a nylon one, it is probably too loose in the first place.
7. With a good custom barrel we would be surprised if you really NEED to send a bronze brush through the barrel more than a half-dozen or so times. Given that fact, how much time/effort are you really saving by running it both ways?,Removing moly may be a different story, however).
Rust said:
Rust, I assume you're being facitious,sp?). Every hall of Fame BR shooter that I know uses brushes. Most use bronze bristle and they run the brush in and out if the barrel for about ten strokes after every ten shots or so. Over the life of a barrel that's a LOT of brushing.
Moderator, the Montana Extreme brushes are made specifically for short stroking. They are neither undersize nor loose.
Ray
Forum Boss
Administrator
Ray, that's a good point you raise about the HOF PPC guys. Yes most of them brush a lot. However, in my interviews before the Super Shoot article, some of the top guys are cleaning a lot less. I'll be interviewing Billy Stevens, Super Shoot winner, in a few weeks, and we'll find out what he has to say.
And throw this into the soup. Most of those guys are tossing barrels after what we would consider a very short barrel life, and regular re-crowning is not unusual. Whether that is related to aggressive brushing over the lifetime of the barrel is an open question. Gail McMillan, who built some very good barrels and held a lot of world records, advocated the procedure you described--cleaning every ten rounds or so.
Many people have raised the point that running a bronze brush through the bore can't possibly create the amount of wear a single bullet screaming through the rifling at 3000 fps can. There's some logic to that. Still, my philosophy is similar to Tim North, which is let the solvents do the work as much as possible, brush minimally, only as necessary. And avoid short stroking except as necessary to remove carbon rings in the throat area. Even Gale McMillan said he's seen many more barrels worn out/ruined by bad cleaning than by bullet wear. And he was the one who believed the "one-shot, one-clean" break-in procedure was bunk, and only served to reduce the useful life of a barrel.
FWIW, David Tubb normally shoots pretty long strings between cleanings. But then he's not trying to shot "zero" groups at 100/200.
And throw this into the soup. Most of those guys are tossing barrels after what we would consider a very short barrel life, and regular re-crowning is not unusual. Whether that is related to aggressive brushing over the lifetime of the barrel is an open question. Gail McMillan, who built some very good barrels and held a lot of world records, advocated the procedure you described--cleaning every ten rounds or so.
Many people have raised the point that running a bronze brush through the bore can't possibly create the amount of wear a single bullet screaming through the rifling at 3000 fps can. There's some logic to that. Still, my philosophy is similar to Tim North, which is let the solvents do the work as much as possible, brush minimally, only as necessary. And avoid short stroking except as necessary to remove carbon rings in the throat area. Even Gale McMillan said he's seen many more barrels worn out/ruined by bad cleaning than by bullet wear. And he was the one who believed the "one-shot, one-clean" break-in procedure was bunk, and only served to reduce the useful life of a barrel.
FWIW, David Tubb normally shoots pretty long strings between cleanings. But then he's not trying to shot "zero" groups at 100/200.
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
A few years ago at a match at Visalia, CA, I had the pleasure of talking with George Kelbly. During that conversation the topic of cleaning came up. He 'lowed as how that BR shooters probably clean a good bit more than they need to and that unless an unusual number of sighters was used that cleaning every two or three matches should be fine. I follow that advice, and I have never see a case where I thought that I was shooting larger groups because of it, in fact my impression many times is that they may be slightly better the second or third group after a through cleaning, I have also noticed that barrels are not all the same in this respect, some shooting at their best after cleaning and a couple of foulers and one in particular that seems to prefer to be dry patched only between matches, to remove the loose powder fouling, which I do, leaving a through cleaning till the change of yardage, or end of the day. I was discussing this point with one of my benchrest betters, Del Bishop, a fine shooter and bullet maker from Washington,state) and he told me that one of the shooters up in their area, who regularly takes home a lot of wood, hardly cleans at all. On the opposite end of the spectrum is the very successful Bart Sauter who staunchly believes in thoroughly cleaning between each and every match.
Getting back to the original topic of this thread, I think that many shooters have bigger cleaning problems than whether they unscrew their brush at the muzzle, like inadequate bore guides, IMHO, TK Nollan, and Chet Whitebread are at the leading edge at the moment.) bowing their rods, working the rod too fast and hard, tight fitting patches,,Why squeeze the solvent off into the chamber before the patch get into the bore?), running the rod too far out of the muzzle during the aforementioned overly vigorous stroking,potential crown wear), and not wiping the rod off often enough to remove the slurry of abrasive particles that it becomes coated with, all seem to me to be more serious problems. A friend has a bore scope and although I use very conventional cleaning techniques, my barrels always pass muster under scope examination, including their crowns. As an aside, I might mention that I have never had a match barrel that gave me problems with copper fouling, although I will admit that the total number of barrels invloved is miniscule compared to many shooters that I know. Now if I could only get better at reading conditions...
Getting back to the original topic of this thread, I think that many shooters have bigger cleaning problems than whether they unscrew their brush at the muzzle, like inadequate bore guides, IMHO, TK Nollan, and Chet Whitebread are at the leading edge at the moment.) bowing their rods, working the rod too fast and hard, tight fitting patches,,Why squeeze the solvent off into the chamber before the patch get into the bore?), running the rod too far out of the muzzle during the aforementioned overly vigorous stroking,potential crown wear), and not wiping the rod off often enough to remove the slurry of abrasive particles that it becomes coated with, all seem to me to be more serious problems. A friend has a bore scope and although I use very conventional cleaning techniques, my barrels always pass muster under scope examination, including their crowns. As an aside, I might mention that I have never had a match barrel that gave me problems with copper fouling, although I will admit that the total number of barrels invloved is miniscule compared to many shooters that I know. Now if I could only get better at reading conditions...
An interesting note. Dean Breeden who just won the 2005 Bud Pryor Benchrest three day shoot at Thurmont Maryland and his shooting partner David Apple,two really great guys by the way) claim they did not clean their 30 BR's at all for the entire three days!
Didn't seem to hurt Deans shooting a bit.
Some of the best scores that I've shot during matches I haven't cleaned the rifle either,was afraid to it was shooting that well!)
Personally I clean when the match is finished, regardless of rounds fired. I use the tried and true mix of two parts Shooters choice to one part Kroil.
Didn't seem to hurt Deans shooting a bit.
Some of the best scores that I've shot during matches I haven't cleaned the rifle either,was afraid to it was shooting that well!)
Personally I clean when the match is finished, regardless of rounds fired. I use the tried and true mix of two parts Shooters choice to one part Kroil.
Cheechako - Just a little bit.
I'm coming from a bit of a different direction with my rifles. It took over thirty years to get to the point where I could even consider getting a full on top drawer custom rifle. Up to that point it was accurazing and rebarreling the typical factory rifle. Some good results there but I always knew it could be better.
After a lot of thought on my first full boat rifle, I took a big breath and broke out the checkbook. Now I'm not real sure just how accurate it is, and it's plenty accurate. So far that barrel has not seen a brush and I have no intention of using one. Yeah, a major cleaning takes most of a day letting the chemicals work but I figure if I used a brush I'd probably jinx myself. Besides, if a squeaky clean bore was the best state of a barrel there would be no fouling shots.
I use two jags, one a little smaller daimeter to spread the solvent, the larger one to clean it out. Even have two rods so I don't have to keep switching jags. Mainly I use Butchs' Bore Shine. I don't mix chemicals, I clean the bore out with alchohol if I'm going to use another chemical first.
Since I have so much money tied up in this one I paid really close attention to what was going on too. For instance, during load developement H4350 produced minimal copper fouling, H3481 produced some copper fouling and RL-22 produced the most copper fouling. Oddly, H4350 didn't seem to get the barrel as hot with comparable velocities either, no idea why that would be so. RL-22 made the barrel distinctly warmer, but then it took a few more grains of powder to reach the same velocities.
The mystery powder is AA 3100. Short range accuracy is amazing, 47 grains gives groups in the .1s. The velocity and ES aren't good enough for 1000 unfortunately. Coppering isn't bad but there is a lot of powder fouling.
The accuracy has never fallen off from fouling so cleaning so far has been preventative so to speak. One thing that occurs to me is that the effect of fouling is somewhat mitigated by the bore size, that is it takes less fouling to upset a .22 bore than a .260 bore or a .30 bore.
But there I go thinking again.
I'm coming from a bit of a different direction with my rifles. It took over thirty years to get to the point where I could even consider getting a full on top drawer custom rifle. Up to that point it was accurazing and rebarreling the typical factory rifle. Some good results there but I always knew it could be better.
After a lot of thought on my first full boat rifle, I took a big breath and broke out the checkbook. Now I'm not real sure just how accurate it is, and it's plenty accurate. So far that barrel has not seen a brush and I have no intention of using one. Yeah, a major cleaning takes most of a day letting the chemicals work but I figure if I used a brush I'd probably jinx myself. Besides, if a squeaky clean bore was the best state of a barrel there would be no fouling shots.
I use two jags, one a little smaller daimeter to spread the solvent, the larger one to clean it out. Even have two rods so I don't have to keep switching jags. Mainly I use Butchs' Bore Shine. I don't mix chemicals, I clean the bore out with alchohol if I'm going to use another chemical first.
Since I have so much money tied up in this one I paid really close attention to what was going on too. For instance, during load developement H4350 produced minimal copper fouling, H3481 produced some copper fouling and RL-22 produced the most copper fouling. Oddly, H4350 didn't seem to get the barrel as hot with comparable velocities either, no idea why that would be so. RL-22 made the barrel distinctly warmer, but then it took a few more grains of powder to reach the same velocities.
The mystery powder is AA 3100. Short range accuracy is amazing, 47 grains gives groups in the .1s. The velocity and ES aren't good enough for 1000 unfortunately. Coppering isn't bad but there is a lot of powder fouling.
The accuracy has never fallen off from fouling so cleaning so far has been preventative so to speak. One thing that occurs to me is that the effect of fouling is somewhat mitigated by the bore size, that is it takes less fouling to upset a .22 bore than a .260 bore or a .30 bore.
But there I go thinking again.
Rust, I think you are exactly right about bore size affecting carbon fouling.
My 30 BR doesn't give a damn wheather I clean it or not. But my 6PPCs are a different matter. I firmly believe in bronze brushing and I even JB the throat area between each 5 shot match. I do have the machines to freshen up the chamber and re-crown every several hundred rounds. I don't care if I shorten barrel life, accuracy trumps all else and in the case of match barrels carbon fouling will kill accuracy and as Boyd said, copper fouling just doesn't usually happen.
Do I take the brush off at the muzzle? No but in a perfect world it'd be a good idea. But in the rush to get the gun cleaned and ammo reloaded during the 30 minutes between matches it isn't likely to happen.
Shelley
My 30 BR doesn't give a damn wheather I clean it or not. But my 6PPCs are a different matter. I firmly believe in bronze brushing and I even JB the throat area between each 5 shot match. I do have the machines to freshen up the chamber and re-crown every several hundred rounds. I don't care if I shorten barrel life, accuracy trumps all else and in the case of match barrels carbon fouling will kill accuracy and as Boyd said, copper fouling just doesn't usually happen.
Do I take the brush off at the muzzle? No but in a perfect world it'd be a good idea. But in the rush to get the gun cleaned and ammo reloaded during the 30 minutes between matches it isn't likely to happen.
Shelley
Upgrades & Donations
This Forum's expenses are primarily paid by member contributions. You can upgrade your Forum membership in seconds. Gold and Silver members get unlimited FREE classifieds for one year. Gold members can upload custom avatars.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.