Turn cases or just consider buying new brass

[gravelyctry]

I'm looking for a little advice. As an introduction, I'm new to LR shooting, having only fired one 1000 yard match last year. I thoroughly enjoyed it and can't wait to do some more. I bought and used a factory Savage Palma gun in 308 Win. specifically for the match.

As far the loads I shot, I used Winchester primers, Winchester brass, and SMK 155 Palma bullets.

Since that match, I've read a few books, and numerous posts on this site to understand what additional steps I can take to improve the quality of my ammo for the upcoming season. One of the steps that I'm interested in looking at is understanding my runout and trying to address it, assuming it exists in my rounds.

I ordered a Sinclair concentricity gauge so I can measure how much runout I have, and am mentally preparing myself for turning case necks in an effort to reduce runout. However, I've read several posts that suggest that neck turning lower quality brass is a futile effort, and the better approach would just be to buy new, higher quality brass (Lapua) and not turn neck cases at all.

I realize it is a factory rifle, so I don't need to turn my brass so it chambers. I am considering neck turning for what I believe are potential accuracy improvements, which include a reduction in runout and uniform neck tension, which is probably the biggest gain.

Am I barking up the wrong tree with considering neck turning? Rather than purchasing neck turning equipment, would I be better off just buying Lapua brass?

BTW, I am using Forster BR FL sizing die, and a Forster seating die. I trim the brass using a Giraud trimmer, and I uniform primer pockets and also flash holes with Sinclair tools.

Any help or insight would be appreciated. Thanks, Neil

 

[Steve Blair]

I recommend using your Winchester brass for practice and purchasing Lapua to use for matches. When the Winchester is discarded, buy only Lapua. With my .308 brass, I sort the cases by weight and take a thin cut on the neck for uniformity. This post shows the importance of weight sorting.

 

[Laurie]

Neil,

your revised approach and Sleepygator's reply are on the mark. Your Winchester brass may be fine, but then again may not, and you don't want to go down the neck turning route at this stage. Anyway, neck thickness variations are often indications that the whole structure is asymmetric, and neck-turning cannot sort that. On firing, you get what is called a 'banana case' that sees it bend out of alignment - only marginally, but our game is all about margins.

Buy Lapua brass. Forget about the primer pocket / flash-hole for the time being - they're very good out of the box unlike a lot of American brass. Resize them - ideally with a die that involves minimal neck diameter reduction - the Redding Type S bushing die is ideal with a bushing dia that is suited to the actual brass thickness, and I'd recommend the addition of a carbide expander ball. Make sure the inside neck walls are well and evenly lubed as the getting the expansion part of this operation right is vital. Clean the lube off. Trim them to the same length if necessary (sometimes it is, sometimes not with Lapua - they're usually very consistent.)

Then, measure neck thickness on all cases and cull out those that are either too far removed from their fellows, or have too much variation around the neck. The Sinclair case [neck] sorter tool is very handy for this, but Lyman makes a neck micrometer that is cheaper if slower to use. You don't need to spend vast sums on this as you're not turning necks down and especially not to 0.001" tolerances as in BR quality shooting set-ups. The idea is to measure a goodly number of cases at three, maybe even four, points around the neck and note the figures. After you have 15 or 20 sets of readings, you'll know what that lot of cases averages, what is the norm or not, what is reasonable or not. Say 0.016" is the norm, with readings half a thou' either side. You can put anything with a reading under 0.0155" and over 0165" to one side for short-range or practice ammo.

Final checks are weighing and batching, as you suggest, and as you're getting a Sinclair run-out gauge, run the (sized) cases over it with the dial mike tip on the middle of the neck. You occasionally get a case with a lot of inbuilt runout that is obviously faulty in some respect. Lapua .308W case weights are in the low to mid 170s (grains) and you want all your selected / batched cases to be within a 1gn weight range at this stage of the game, but you can often get them into a 0.5gn range with out of the box Lapua. It varies though by lot and some have noticeably wider ranges than others. Putting a large piece of paper on the table with weights marked in 0.1gn steps and putting cases into rows above / below the weight headings gives you the distribution histogram and makes it visually very clear where you make your segregations. If you're using electronic scales, rezero frequently to avoid 'scale drift'.

I'd suggest 200 cases (maybe even 300 if you can afford it) bought together so hopefully from one production lot (but don't mix them until you're sure that they are pretty well all alike) to give you a good size pool to work with. You'll quite quickly get two by 50 case batches for match ammo, and keep them together in your ammo boxes so they remain batched and undergo the same number of firings. The necks will work harden, the rate depending on a combination of your loads and the amount of clearance on the Savage around the neck - minimise working the brass with a Redding or similar bushing die. Some people I know only use their cases for LR matches 5 times. I reckon you can probably go a bit more but 10 firings is pushing it for long-range use.

When you load-test, don't just look for accuracy (group size), but beg borrow or steal a chronograph. LR shooting needs small MV spreads too - you want to be under 20 fps ES values for 1,000 yd shooting, better still around 10 fps. Many combinations with large spreads will give very small 100yd groups, but the velocity variations induce vertical stringing on the target at extreme ranges. Finally, you need at least 2,950 fps with a 155gn bullet for 1,000 yards unless you shoot somewhere warm and high like Raton to ensure your bullets are all still supersonic at 1,000yd. In the UK, we'd say 3,000 fps is better for this reason given our temperatures, altitudes and atmospheric conditions.

I hope this helps - it's one approach and other people have different ones - and good luck.

Laurie,
York, England

 

[gravelyctry]

Thanks for the great explanation on a better approach.

 

[1000yardstare]

gravelyctry, to my way of thinking, the main variable in long range shooting affecting scores is the wind and the shooter`s ability to read same. Granted, working on small variables such as neck turning may give a shooter more confidence in their equipment, but I remain to be convinced that the effort involved in neck turning will give results at 1000 yards that are measurable let alone obvious.

However I have a slew of second place results in F Class competition with my 6AI and may need some slight refinement of my techniques to start snagging some firsts. I suspect the main culprit is my ability to read the wind BUT, to this end, I am working up a batch of Win brass with 60% turned necks run through a Redding bushing neck die. I have seen just as many F Class matches won with commercial North American brass as with expensive European brass.

Next Summer will tell the tale. A year from now what will be my opinion of neck turning? Maybe we will be comparing results.

 

[GermanS1]

Neil, don't be too quick to write off the Winchester brass. I have found that over the past ten years or so the quality has distinctly improved and case wall thickness variance is on a par with Lapua. Apart from that, it is thinner and has more capacity than Lapua which is important with some of the powders being used in Palma shooting. I use Winchester in all of my Palma shooting and so do many high level Palma shooters in my part of the country.

If you'd like to learn a bit about neck turning (just the basics) here's a short piece: http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2009/12/reloading-neck-turning.html

And if you'd like to learn more about case wall thickness variance, here's another: http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2009/07/reloading-audette-neco-case-checker.html

 

[Steve Blair]

German's point about case weight is well taken. Although the Winchester brass requires more sorting and effort, it can perform. The brass is tough and can be reloaded almost as many times as Lapua.

A recent sample of 300 Lapua .308 cases averaged ~172 grains while a lot of 500 Winchester .308 averaged ~158 grains. If you are using a powder that is at the edge of case capacity, the Winchester brass could provide another, match-winning choice.

This post shows a histogram from the Lapua sort and demonstrates that all manufacturers have occasional problems.

 

[gravelyctry]

So...

The right approach should be to buy a tool that I can measure my Winchester brass neck wall thickness with to see if it's decent quality?

But what about "banana" cases after firing. Neck sorting can't fix that issue, so does that mean that after firing the brass once, I need to resort the brass and cull out any that are bananas?

Thanks for the help and great information.

 

[MarkS]

gravelyctry,

I have shot 600 and 1000yds benchrest for 9 years, Alot of the guys now are shooting no turn necks with a mim chamber/ with 0.002" clearence on the neck. With a factory chamber don't turn the necks.

Sort brass Win brass is good. When I started shooting 1000yds, I had a 6mmAI shooting varmint loads, I shot a 18" group. Next match a sorted my brass and shot a 12 " group. Next match a got new brass and had a 8" agg for 6 matches.

One thing that helped me more than anything, is a bullet bearing surface compairtor, David Tubb makes a good one. sort as you would your brass into 0.001" groups then group them in 0.003" groups.

I then will sort my loaded rounds with a runout gage, put the lows as record rounds and the higher ones for sighters.

Mark Schronce

 

[gravelyctry]

OK - I got my new Sinclair concentricity gauge yesterday, and tried it out this morning. I had a box of 50 shells left that I had loaded last year for my LR match using the full length resizer dies (Forster) and Forster BR seater die. I decided I would check concentricity at the bullet ogive as well as the case neck, and separate based on runout of .004. I had 25 shells that were less than or equal to .004, and 25 that were over .004. The worst one was right at .008. Interestingly, the shells that had runout over .004 on the ogive, also had over .004 runout on the case necks. The ones that were under .004 on the ogive had case necks that had runout under .004.
So, first off, is .004 the right number to use, or should I lower it to .003?
Secondly, at this rate, I wouldn't have much brass left, especially if I sort at .003.
I also broke down today and ordered a Sinclair neck turner. It's something I'm curious about, so I figured I'd give it a try. Nobody's said anything about it possibly hurting anything, so I don't feel like I have much to lose.
German, thanks for the links to the great articles. They're alot of help. Neil

 

[gravelyctry]

I'm confusing myself the more I read.

Do I sort cases by weight first, then cull anything with more than .004 runout, then measure neck wall thickness, and then neck turn? I started thinking maybe I should neck turn first to make the neck walls uniform, then weigh them, but that doesn't seem to be the recommended approach.

Based on the articles I've read, this all needs to be done after full length resizing, and also after trimming the cases to length. Right?

If I check the case runout, where do I check it at?

 

[GermanS1]

Neil, run the cases over the expander to take out the dings (new brass I assume), then trim to length and then turn the necks. Beyond that, i really don't do anything, but if you want to check for concentricity, wait until you've fired them once, they will give very screwy readings when new.

I sort by weight after 20 firings ;D

 

[Steve Blair]

A lot of what shooters do when handloading is related to what they do when shooting. German Salazar is a prone Highpower shooter (a very good one) and cares about x-rings at 600-1000 yards. Shooters in other disciplines are likely to do more or less as dictated by need. Point blank benchrest shooters could not be competitive without attending every loading detail. A Palma shooter can benefit much more from trigger time and learning the wind than obtaining the last scintilla of accuracy. Try doing what German recommends and get lots of practice. When your load is more of a problem than the wind and your shooting, you will likely know it.

I shoot a scoped rifle for group from a rest. My requirements are very different than Palma competitors.

 

[GermanS1]

That's an excellent point, we are each guided by the needs of our respective disciplines and we tend to see technical questions from that perspective. I need to be more aware of that sometimes! Thanks.

 

[jkl]

As a student of Germans I can tell you that everything is important. I have found that time behind the gun trying to get everything correct at the same time has been the biggest challenge. Loading has been a part of my shooting life for a long time and I can produce the loads. At this point the loads will out shoot me.

I still find myself going to the blog and picking up little pieces of information all the time, the other day it was neck tension.

My goal is to get German to drive to the range and finish behind me by X count or points. I will take a tie as the first step. I don't know when but the day will come and I know we will both be proud of that stirng of well placed shots.

John

 

[gravelyctry]

All,
Thanks for all the help. I figured I owed everyone a post on what I finally decided to do.
The final direction is sort of a combination of what alot of folks said above. I bought new Lapua brass, as well as a Sinclair tool to check case neck thickness.

I separated 3 lots of 20 pcs from one box of the Lapua brass. The first set I full length sized, then measured both min and max case neck thickness, concentricity, and case length using a Hornady comparator. The runout on these cases ranged from .004 to .016. I then neck turned them all to 14.5 thousandths wall thickness (after running over an expander) and remeasured neck thicknesses and concentricity. Concentricity didn't improve, but case wall thicknesses were very consistent.

The next batch of 20 I skipped the full length sizing and did everything else. Wall thickness varied about 5 thousandths, and concentricity was very good, usually .001. After expanding and turning the necks on these, the wall thicknesses were incredibly consistent as was concentricity. Wall thicknesses varied less than .001, and concentricity was .001 as well.

The last set I just kept as a baseline, and did all the measurements to.

I also had some of my 1x fired Winchester brass from this same gun, and measured all the same dimensions on it that I had checked on the Lapua. I was surprised that it was fairly similar to the Lapua as far as measurement consistency goes. The walls weren't quite as thick as the Lapua.

I ended up convincing myself that the biggest problem I have (had?) wasn't the quality of the Winchester brass, rather it was the problems (concentricity) that I introduced during the full length sizing.

I also decided that neck turning was very much worth the effort , and since I have the time, I'm going to continue to pursue it. It's almost amazing how consistent the brass is after neck turning.

I also have a new Redding die on its way that I'm hoping will help me address the concentricity issues I did identify.

The last thing I wanted to mention is that I agree with some others opinions above that I would likely benefit more from time behind the trigger than spending that time neck turning. But, it's a little chilly outside, and I'm not going to lay in the snow to shoot paper. Also, when I am ready to shoot, I decided that I want to make sure that where ever that little hole ends up on the paper, I want to know that it was between me and the wind, and that there was nothing else (ammo related, anyways) that will affect it. I figure I may as well control the issues that I can control (ammo), rather than not.

Thanks, again, and Happy New Year!

 

[Laurie]

Watch it Gravelyctry,

I also decided that neck turning was very much worth the effort , and since I have the time, I'm going to continue to pursue it. It's almost amazing how consistent the brass is after neck turning.

you're in severe danger of catching the dreaded ANTS disease - Addictive Neck Turning Syndrome - like me!

The last thing I wanted to mention is that I agree with some others opinions above that I would likely benefit more from time behind the trigger than spending that time neck turning. But, it's a little chilly outside, and I'm not going to lay in the snow to shoot paper. Also, when I am ready to shoot, I decided that I want to make sure that where ever that little hole ends up on the paper, I want to know that it was between me and the wind, and that there was nothing else (ammo related, anyways) that will affect it. I figure I may as well control the issues that I can control (ammo), rather than not.

Seriously, I think you're absolutely right here. Get everything you can in the ammunition right so you're confident about its performance then get the time in on the range. The only other thing I'd add is to check your ammunition's performance occasionally at short range to ensure it's still grouping OK especially if you've changed any components or got a new batch of powder. I've seen top UK F-Class shooters caught out several times like this only finding out their accuracy has gone off in a major match.

Happy New Year and good shooting in 2010,

Laurie

 

[therifler]

Hi just like to share my thoughts on the subject . I use nothing but win. brass I tried lapua, norma ,rem. and some hornady. I listened to fellow shooters and read very informative posts such as I am reading here today . From that I formed my own routine for brass preparation with Win.
I turn my necks I do not have a tight neck chamber .
I turn to achieve a certain wall thickness.
I weigh my brass within 1 gr of one another .
I deburr primer holes, outside of necks and use 11 degree inside chamfering tool with Bt bullets .
I use a bushing die with expander ball than I also use a special pin die to achieve my final neck tension .
I use a body die to bump the shoulder to get a good fit in my chamber .
Then all I have to do is load powder and shoot . Some would say that I could avoid alot of this trouble by buying different brass . But I like Winchester and I even win matches from time to time . All these steps I picked up from some very good shooters . Can someone tell me is this over kill or pretty much what has to be done . therifler

 

[Steve Blair]

Rifler: That is pretty close to my routine with Winchester 6mm brass. The metal is very good, Winchester's execution is a little lacking. I usually weigh a single lot of 500 cases and divide it according to weight distribution. My criteria is generally .25% of case weight. On a recent sort of Lapua .308 brass, that meant groups under .43 grain variation. Out of 300 cases, from low to high, there were: 50 at .42, 50 at .36, 100 at .26 and 90 at .42,

There are often 2 or 3 cases that must be discarded because of flaws. Cases at the two extremes are retained for foulers.

 

[therifler]

Sleepygator ,thanks for the info . I have read on another site that Lapua is coming out with 22-250 cases i might have to try these . I am shooting an ackley variant of 250 case necked up to 6.5 doing very well with the round with winchester cases . But you can always do better.