Trouble with Forster Coax Press & Standard Case Head Cartridges

[RankAmateur]

I seem to be having trouble with the shell holder jaws and standard diameter case head cartridges. I've loaded a bit of .223, lots of different mag bolt head diameter cases and even some big old rimmed cartridges like the 45/70 with the various shell holders jaws that can be had from forster and none of them have given me the same issue.

Specifically it seems that the jaws are only "finger tipping" the case head on two sides, exactly opposite each other, and very little resistance is needed on the extraction of a case from a sizing die to bend the rim slightly or many times even rip small portions of the rim off of the case, leaving me reaching for the stuck case remover.

I am confident that I know what I am doing when it comes to case lube as it seems to be a very clear feel as to when too much or too little is being applied on all the other size cases that never give me problems, but I have experimented with a few different lubes and quantities applied regardless.


If you look at the forster manual there is a range of case head sizes that each set of jaws "fits" and it seems like they designed a set of jaws with a window of sizes that puts both 223 and Mag case head diameters soundly in the middle of the range, but then just went "eh, close enough" when it came to standard case head diameter.
If I'm thinking about this correctly the minimum tolerance would be the least secure grip and the max would be the best fit with the maximum rim coverage.

S Jaws - small end Min 0.343, Max 0.422 (223 rem case head 0.378)
-> 0.035" from min tolerance

S Jaws - large end Min 0.468, Max 0.562 (300 WSM case head 0.535)
-> 0.067 from min tolerance

S Jaws - large end Min 0.468, Max 0.562 (308win case head 0.473)
-> 0.005 from min tolerance

So am I thinking about this correctly? Would it seem that standard case head cartridges are a poor fit for the recommended jaws and are therefor probably causing this problem for other people as well?
Or am I likely either confused or simply in possession of a bad press/jaws (as in mine is a bad example, Not All are bad)

 

[Bob L.]

I seem to be having trouble with the shell holder jaws and standard diameter case head cartridges. I've loaded a bit of .223, lots of different mag bolt head diameter cases and even some big old rimmed cartridges like the 45/70 with the various shell holders jaws that can be had from forster and none of them have given me the same issue.

Specifically it seems that the jaws are only "finger tipping" the case head on two sides, exactly opposite each other, and very little resistance is needed on the extraction of a case from a sizing die to bend the rim slightly or many times even rip small portions of the rim off of the case, leaving me reaching for the stuck case remover.

I am confident that I know what I am doing when it comes to case lube as it seems to be a very clear feel as to when too much or too little is being applied on all the other size cases that never give me problems, but I have experimented with a few different lubes and quantities applied regardless.


If you look at the forster manual there is a range of case head sizes that each set of jaws "fits" and it seems like they designed a set of jaws with a window of sizes that puts both 223 and Mag case head diameters soundly in the middle of the range, but then just went "eh, close enough" when it came to standard case head diameter.
If I'm thinking about this correctly the minimum tolerance would be the least secure grip and the max would be the best fit with the maximum rim coverage.

S Jaws - small end Min 0.343, Max 0.422 (223 rem case head 0.378)
-> 0.035" from min tolerance

S Jaws - large end Min 0.468, Max 0.562 (300 WSM case head 0.535)
-> 0.067 from min tolerance

S Jaws - large end Min 0.468, Max 0.562 (308win case head 0.473)
-> 0.005 from min tolerance

So am I thinking about this correctly? Would it seem that standard case head cartridges are a poor fit for the recommended jaws and are therefor probably causing this problem for other people as well?
Or am I likely either confused or simply in possession of a bad press/jaws (as in mine is a bad example, Not All are bad)

I have loaded thousands of 6BRX (.308 head) Lapua brass using the large end of the S jaws without an issue. Have you contacted Forster? What brass manufacturer? What brand dies? Have you tried the dies in other presses?

Contacting Forster would be the first step. They will likely ask similar questions, though.

 

[jdh47]

When assembling the shell holder and you put the jaws in their places you need to make sure the springs are contacting the small posts at the end of their slots. If they don't they will not have enough spring tension to close far enough to catch a standard case.

There is an aftermarket fix for that. You can also get the standard shell holder plate to use standard shell holders in as well.

Joe

 

[Mulligan]

Never had an issue with any of the cartridges I load for.
Forester will help
CW

 

[effendude]

Do you have the jaws upside down? one side has the machined groove for the rim, the other side is beveled.

Scott

 

[GrocMax]

Also on some but not all Co-Ax presses, along with the rear mounted coned screw that spread the jaws in the lowest ram position, there was a coned screw on the front that spread the jaws while the ram was in any position, this is very handy for using a bullet puller but may not let the jaws close enough for normal resizing operations if its adjusted incorrectly.

With both screws backed out fully make sure the jaws have full spring tension to close and slide easily to full open. Its very easy to let a chunklet of trash get caught inside when swapping the jaws and a binding condition shows up on reassembly.

 

[Richard Jones]

..........You can also get the standard shell holder plate to use standard shell holders in as well.

Joe

This is what I did. I don't miss those spring loaded things 1 little bit.......

 

[Ledd Slinger]

Yeah sounds like the jaws might be upside down.

As mentioned earlier, you can purchase an adapter for the Co-ax that allows it to take standard shell holders from RCBS and Redding. The standard shell holders are better suited for tough work with sticky cases. I personally don't size with my Coax. I only seat bullets with it. All of my case sizing is done on an old RCBS RockChucker press.

Annealing cases makes them extract from a sizing die much easier. Some of the resistance you are feeling is the brass wanting to spring back against the walls of the die.

If using an expander ball, make sure that you are running a brush in the necks. I use a nylon brush one caliber larger than the cases I am sizing and run about 4 strokes in the necks before sizing. Also keep the expander ball cleaned regularly. Expander balls need to be cleaned every 10 rounds, sometimes sooner if your necks are really dirty, or the carbon will build up on the ball and create a lot of resistance. If your necks get too dirty, you need to clean your brass in a tumbler. Again, annealing the cases will make running the necks over an expander ball WAY smoother.

Applying enough case lube is one thing, using good lube is another. I use Imperial sizing wax and it serves me very well.

 

[RankAmateur]

Ok, lots of responses, thanks everyone.

In order:
Bob L.
I've used a variety of brass, FC, RP, & Win; all once fired.
Several sets of dies, mostly redding, one forster
Have not tried the dies in anyone else's press, I don't know anyone else that reloads.

jdh47
I have been using the press for quite some time and living with the issue so far, I have in that time changed jaws many times. I don't believe I've Ever had the springs out of place, but I have always had this problem with this sized case head, and I can definitely say the springs have not been out of place Every time.

effendude
Nope, not upside down ... just went down to check one more time, just in case, doesn't really look like they would grip at all with the large bevel on the other side.

GrocMax
Only one coned screw in mine...always wondered what the extra hole in the base was for though.

Ledd Slinger
I haven't tried brushing the inside case necks, I will give it a go and see if it makes a difference, but I use a wet tumbler with stainless pins, quiet liberally, and my brass comes out beautiful so I doubt dirt is my issue.
I had suspected the expander might be the problem so I did recheck those a few times and even Very Mildly polished the balls with some extremely fine material I generally use on my straight razor.
I also have used Imperial Wax, seems to go farther per $ than Hornady's One Shot which also seems to give me good results (on the magnum cartridges that I load far more of)

I do probably need to start annealing some of my cases, I have 3 loadings on some of the Mags, but I have not exhausted my supply of once fired brass for any of the cases that are giving me issues, so I didn't think it would be too tough yet.


Anyway it seems it is just me having this problem, so I will clean some brass, brush the necks, clean the dies, clean the press and re-install the jaws again, and if the issue still persists Call Forster.

Thanks for all the replies, I'm now confident that it is not a flaw in this size jaws in general; and I will check for operator error one last time.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

Sounds good.

3 firings on once fired brass is due for annealing in my book. I definitely recommend annealing. If you anneal the necks and shoulders of the brass, I'm sure you will notice a night and day difference.

Just try a few cases to see. Use a propane torch with a low flame and a heavy duty leather glove. Turn the lights off and heat the neck and shoulder while rotating the cases in your hand to where you very first get a very dull glow on the brass then immediately take the brass out of the flame. Do not get it red hot. Once complete and they have cooled down, lube and resize the cases. Even a dirty neck will pull easily over an expander ball on a freshly annealed case.

I have found in the past that 'once fired' brass usually needs annealing right away. So I just anneal any and all once fired brass as soon as I get it. I anneal every 2 or 3 firings thereafter.

 

[Bob L.]

After reading all the responses and your answers, I think you have done everything reasonable to solve the problem yourself. Please go ahead and call Forster. You will find them friendly and helpful. They will stand behind their product and make it right.

 

[effendude]

One more thought... I have several dies that use the expander ball on the depriming stem. Some dies/brass/cartridge combinations get really tough to pull that expander ball back up through the neck, even brand new brass. I finally added the extra step of inserting the case neck into the Imperial dry neck lube before applying Imperial wax to the rest of the case. Sizing even the large ultra mag or Lapua Mag cases is much easier now.
Scott

 

[BenPerfected]

Retry using the 1-shot spray lube, it is also what DJ's brass recommends.
Ben

 

[Ledd Slinger]

One more thought... I have several dies that use the expander ball on the depriming stem. Some dies/brass/cartridge combinations get really tough to pull that expander ball back up through the neck, even brand new brass. I finally added the extra step of inserting the case neck into the Imperial dry neck lube before applying Imperial wax to the rest of the case. Sizing even the large ultra mag or Lapua Mag cases is much easier now.
Scott

Ive done that before and it definitely makes the necks pull way smoother. I just don't like having lube in my case necks when seating bullets if the ammo is going to sit for a while like my varmint and hunting rounds do. The lube basically turns into a mild gummy adhesive when it cools down. If I'm loading to shoot that day or the next morning I don't mind very slightly lubing the necks. But I suppose a person could clean the lube out after sizing.

 

[effendude]

Ive done that before and it definitely makes the necks pull way smoother. I just don't like having lube in my case necks when seating bullets if the ammo is going to sit for a while like my varmint and hunting rounds do. The lube basically turns into a mild gummy adhesive when it cools down. If I'm loading to shoot that day or the next morning I don't mind very slightly lubing the necks. But I suppose a person could clean the lube out after sizing.

The dry lube goes inside the case neck, it is a light graphite that doesn't effect the round. You could brush it if necessary. I don't use the wax lube inside the case mouth, just externally.
Scott

 

[jepp2]

Specifically it seems that the jaws are only "finger tipping" the case head on two sides, exactly opposite each other, and very little resistance is needed on the extraction of a case from a sizing die to bend the rim slightly or many times even rip small portions of the rim off of the case, leaving me reaching for the stuck case remover.

I am confident that I know what I am doing when it comes to case lube as it seems to be a very clear feel as to when too much or too little is being applied on all the other size cases that never give me problems, but I have experimented with a few different lubes and quantities applied regardless.

I assume you have your expander set in a position to deprime the brass. This would mean your expander would pass through the case neck very late in the upward motion of the press handle.

Is the case damage occurring as soon as you start to raise the handle, or when the expander passes through the case neck?

This will define if the issue is a lube issue on the outside of the case or inside the case neck.

How much "work" is the expander having to do? If you size a case without the expander and measure the OD of the case neck, and compare it with the OD of a case that the expander has passed through, you can determine the expansion occurring.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

The dry lube goes inside the case neck, it is a light graphite that doesn't effect the round. You could brush it if necessary. I don't use the wax lube inside the case mouth, just externally.
Scott

Oh I see. I thought you meant putting wet lube in the necks. I misread your post.

 

[RankAmateur]

I assume you have your expander set in a position to deprime the brass. This would mean your expander would pass through the case neck very late in the upward motion of the press handle.

Is the case damage occurring as soon as you start to raise the handle, or when the expander passes through the case neck?

This will define if the issue is a lube issue on the outside of the case or inside the case neck.

How much "work" is the expander having to do? If you size a case without the expander and measure the OD of the case neck, and compare it with the OD of a case that the expander has passed through, you can determine the expansion occurring.

Actually, I use a lee universal die to deprime my cases and then tumble them clean before they ever go near my sizing dies. (never wanted to risk any dirt being in them). Then I use the dies adjusted so that the sizing ball is about as high as can safely be done without a crush fit occurring in the brass neck/shoulder area; as described here
http://www.forsterproducts.com/mdocs-posts/full_length_sizing_die_instructions/
As the die maker states, doing it this way is supposed to help with straight necks/concentricity, and though I don't have the equipment to measure that aspect of my reloads yet, I figure the die/press maker should know what they are talking about.

I've also had it mentioned that cleaning brass fully before sizing could lead to "dry" case necks that cause excessive resistance to sizing, but my thinking was that the lubing process (spraying the one shot) down over the brass at an angle, should ensure that enough lube gets in there to help the expander resist dry friction binding.

 

[jepp2]

Since your expander is set that high, it might be difficult to determine if the resistance is coming from the outside of the die, or the inside of the case neck.

You might try using Imperial wax on the outside of the case and the inside of the neck (apply it using a Q-tip). Imperial is a very good lube and using it inside the case neck will work better than the dry lubes or One Shot. Since your brass has been squeaky clean, the inside of the case neck needs a decent lube. But it would need to be removed prior to loading with powder or bullet seating.

There just shouldn't be that much force of withdrawing the case from the die. So I am trying to make suggestions to help isolate where the problem is coming from.

 

[RankAmateur]

I forgot to mention in my previous post that the rim has popped at various stages of the upstroke and often so smoothly that I hardly notice it has happened until I look down and see that the case is not still in the holder (jaws), but if memory serves it was usually as soon as the upstroke started.


The last week or so I haven't had time to do much, but I am going to be looking at getting an annealing set up before doing any more loading. I've seen many quick ways to go about annealing and I know there are some VERY elaborate (ie. expensive) set ups out there that should do a great precision job; I am hoping to do a bit of searching for a middle of the road option.


I won't know for certain until I get my annealing set up and start resizing some brass again but I MAY have solved the problem. I disassembled the jaws/sliding plate and completely removed all of the light gun oil I was using as a lubricant, then finely polished the black iron jaw holder housing (in the area that contacts the jaws and reassembled after spraying all the parts with a fine mist of Tough Glide.
It now seems that the jaws close with an audible snap and sit slightly more flushly together now (with no case, just empty jaws). It also seems that I could tighten the retaining bolts slightly more snugly than before without interfering with the jaws closing, though a few extra inch/pounds of torque can still cause excessive drag. (they are still basically in the realm of finger tight)

I never noticed that the jaws were not fully closing on case heads before, but perhaps this increased closing force will help them get a fractionally deeper grip on the rim, even if its not enough to see with the naked eye.

I will update with success or failure after I try sizing some cases . . . for now, I'm off to look into the most consistent method of annealing that I can set up without a large investment.