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Transsonic/ subsonic stability

What bullets will give the best transsonic and subsonic stability?
And will be the best predictable?
Fired from a .308 26" barrel.
The target will at 1600 meters .
The 155 scenar or the 175 berger OTM
Or the 175 SMK?

Bergers are hard to buy in europe but willing to give them a try
if they are the best to use at a 1600m ELR shoot.

Appreciate your input.

Grtz rudie
 
I have shot one mile, 1760 yds, with 308, 155, 158, 165 and 175 gr bullets. Picture shows the jacket found in front of 2' X 2' steel target and an example of bullet. It was a 158gr steel tip.

Have taken several calibers to one mile without the transonic velocity problems. I was unsuccessful getting to one mile with 6.5 X 47 Lapua and 140 gr bullets. Got to 1400 yds and that was it. I imagine it was starting to tumble just past the 1400 target.

 

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How well a bullet survives transonic has a lot to do with design, in particular BT design, as well as the OAL of the bullet. Shorter bullets with shallow BT's (or FB's) will generally be best at transonic.

Having said that, atmospherics plays a big role as well. High altitude and warmer air means longer supersonic range as well as improved stability thru transonic due to the thinner air. It's quite common that a bullet is 'transonic stable' in one environment but not another.

Of the bullets you listed, the 175 SMK and 175 Berger OTM are known transonic performers in all conditions. I would be skeptical of the 155 scenar, as it's long for it's weight. With fast enough twist and high enough altitude, it would probably make it.

Transonic stability of a bullet is very difficult to predict. It typically takes a great deal of live fire in numerous twist rates and environments to fully map where a bullet will 'survive' and where it won't.

-Bryan
 
Thank you guys, for the answers.
I've read modern advancements in long range shooting and
couldn't decide.
I'm trying to get the berger OTM's
For the attempt at the extended long range.

Grtz
 
Given the belief that spin rate doesn't decay much, if at all, during the flight of the bullet I would think that given a high spin rate, either from high MV, faster twist or a combination of both, the tendency to tumble during transonic passage can be greatly decreased or even eliminated.
 
bayou shooter said:
Given the belief that spin rate doesn't decay much, if at all, during the flight of the bullet I would think that given a high spin rate, either from high MV, faster twist or a combination of both, the tendency to tumble during transonic passage can be greatly decreased or even eliminated.

The spin rate does decay, but only a tiny bit compared to the decay of forward motion.

I have never put any belief in the mysterious voodoo of "trans sonic" problems. Shooters have a pattern of making up "unscientific theories" to explain things that they don't understand, and this is one of them...

The bullet never goes through turbulence, because the turbulence is ALWAYS behind the bullet.


BulletShockwave_zps44712e3d.jpg


As the bullet slows down, the shock wave on the nose gets weaker and weaker, until it just disappears, so the bullet cannot pass through it.

But, here is some photos of bullets that went sideways, from a twist the was perfect for the bullets, length, and speed... target was at 100 yards and bullet speed at the target was ~3,200 fps - not whacha call "trans sonic" ???


Comettails001_zps57b16a5f.jpg



Comettails004_zpsd6b6ebd1.jpg



It is interesting to note that this last bullet hole looks shorter than the others, because it hit the target while in transition and was pointing at ~50° and had not gone fully 90° yet - which dispels another "theory" that bullets will fly in the direction that they are pointed like an airplane... which dispels another theory, that bullets fly in circular "screw" paths until they "go to sleep"... they are launched "asleep", or they go into destructive "procession" until they tumble.

Comettails005_zps5e3b2677.jpg
 
Sniper338 said:
Id go with the 175 berger to try that personally.. thats a long kong ways for a 308 though..

There are people here that are shooting at 2,000 and 3,000 yards, and a group in England shooting at 2,000 meters - all with standard .30 and .303 calibre rifles.
 
So, what's the difference between a "a tiny bit" and "doesn't decay much, if at all"?

My point was that whatever spin decay there may be, it's inconsequential according to Newton's first law of motion, and the bullet just gets more stable as the distance goes on.

Interesting keyhole pictures you have there, any details available such as caliber, bullet length and weight, barrel twist, muzzle velocity, etc.
 
bayou shooter said:
So, what's the difference between a "a tiny bit" and "doesn't decay much, if at all"?

My point was that whatever spin decay there may be, it's inconsequential according to Newton's first law of motion, and the bullet just gets more stable as the distance goes on.

Interesting keyhole pictures you have there, any details available such as caliber, bullet length and weight, barrel twist, muzzle velocity, etc.

"So, what's the difference between a "a tiny bit" and "doesn't decay much, if at all"?

The difference is there is no "... if at all?" It does decay, butnot inpreportion to the losses incured in forward velocity.


"My point was that whatever spin decay there may be, it's inconsequential according to Newton's first law of motion...

??? Newton's first law has nothing to do with anything here.

"... and the bullet just gets more stable as the distance goes on."

Not possible. Spinning objects do not get more stable if the rate of spin stays the same or slowly diminishes.



["
 
I have never put any belief in the mysterious voodoo of "trans sonic" problems. Shooters have a pattern of making up "unscientific theories" to explain things that they don't understand, and this is one of them...[catshooter]

You may or may not believe some things, but others who know rather a lot about the subject do actually believe in transonic speed problems.

For instance, the US Army who over several decades have researched the subject in some depth and built up a wealth of emprical knowledge as to what works and equally important doesn't work in L-R match and sniper ammo.

I refer you to a pair of articles by FS titled 'Cartridges: 7.62 NATO Long Range Match Cartridges' republished in the 'The Rifleman's Journal' blogspot. Here's how Mr Salberta summarises the US Army's position on this:

Although not well understood by many, at around 100 fps above the speed of sound, there is sufficient turbulence that some bullet designs have their subsonic accuracy seriously compromised when they fall to below this speed. Many well designed bullets fired from an appropriate twist barrel will have minimal transonic perturbations, though there is generally some degradation associated with making the transition from the sonic to subsonic region. Through many years of testing, the US Army has decided that the threshold above which this effect can be ignored is 1226 fps in standard atmosphere conditions. Ideally any load will be above this speed at the terminal target distance.

And .... a considerable part of the descriptions of the development of US match and sniper ammunition in the two-part feature is about efforts made to stay above transonic flight at the 1,000 yard mark, or at any rate staying 100 fps faster than the prevailing speed of sound. Still, what does the US Army know?

Another group of people who know a little bit about this subject are British and GB Commonwealth Match Rifle competitors, a strange discipline that has no US equivalent and which like FTR is limited to the 308 cartridge but with other bells and whistles including a pretty restrictive ceiling on barrel weight. MR is shot normally at 1,000, 1,100, and 1,200 yards stages in a single fixture, although where the range facilities exist, it can be shot at still longer distances. Unlike FTR / F-Class, MR stays with standard NRA sized targets, ie double the F-Class diameter for each scoring ring.

These guys (and a few ladies) have been shooting at ultra long-ranges with first the 303 (with specially loaded heavy BT bulleted 'streamlined' ammo) and in more recent times they've been shooting the 308 at 1,200 yards sometimes further, long before Bryan designed his first bullet for Berger or anybody else. They were experts at coaxing serious MVs out of the 308 with heavy bullets long before F-Class was dreamt up by George Farquarson in Canada and used Sierra 180s (the old shallow angle boat-tail model), the 190 SMK (a favourite used by almost all competitors pre VLD days) and the 200/220 SMKs. I should also add that they discovered what worked long before anybody mentioned G7 BCs or for that matter half reliable BCs were available at all for this type of shooting and distance.) It was believed that if you could drive the 190 fast enough it remained supersonic at 1,200 but rigging huge metal foil screen chronographs behind a target at Bisley showed that this wasn't so. Another (minority) school of thought in MR at one time was to load cartridges low to the point where the last quarter of the bullet flight would definitely be subsonic. This approach sometimes worked it's said, but not infallibly by any means, and most competitors preferred to go as fast as possible. Either approach was to avoid transonic flight at or near the target.

There was a very enlightening discussion of this subject on the US Rifle Teams Long-Range Forums back in early 2010 after the GB Match Rifle team's tour of Australia over the 2009/10 winter (the Antipodean summer, of course) which included a series of matches up to and including 1,500 yards at Coonabarabran Range which is 1,700 ft ASL and saw very high temperatures during the fixtures.

http://www.usrifleteams.com/lrforum/index.php?showtopic=12577&hl=coonabarabran#entry92568

I refer you to post number 7 and a couple of sentences in the middle of it:

I would suggest ANY bullet going into the transonic and/or subsonic zone will go awol at 1200yds if the wind gets up. On still days you may get away with it.

These are the words from somebody who is a member of a select group which has been experimenting with the 308 and similar cartridges at extreme ranges for a long, long time and whose members really do know what works and what doesn't. Note the reference to 'Barry, Pendine, and Dunlossit' over 60 years [of MR] in post 8.

You make a reference to over 2,000 yards with 308 and 303 in England in one of your posts and these three venues are what you're referring to, none of which have been in use at these distances (or in two cases for shooting at all) for a long, long time now. (I'd also be careful about just which Brit you talk about 'in England' to, as none of these ranges is in England, two being in Scotland and one in Wales.)

Dunlossit was the the most interesting of these being a private facility built in a deerstalking estate on the Isle of Islay at at time when there would be precsious few tourists, hillwalkers and other liable to blunder onto such an informal range. Islay is one of the southern group of the Inner Hebrides islands off the west coast of Scotland, a remote and wild place even today in the wrong weather and season, and shall we say well off the beaten track in the 1960s when the range was in use. Matches were shot at up to 2,640 yards, but the targets were as large as houses and in some weather conditions, a top score saw fewer than half the shots hit - but some groups were remarkable.

Today, and for many years past, there is no 2,000 yard competition in the UK nor anything like that distance. The only ranges that offer this sort of distance are military 'field firing' ranges which do not have formal targets set up as on normal distance 'gallery ranges'. They are designed for military training using crew served support weapons, anti-tank missiles, and large calibre sniper rifles. AFAIK, the sole civilian recreational target shooting use is their hire on the basis of a handful of days each year by the UK 50-Cal Shooting Association as .338 LM and heavier rifles are banned on ordinary MoD gallery rifle ranges. UKFCSA shoot 'targets' at long ranges, 1,500 yards and up but that is the odd Fig 11 military advancing soldier type and other larger objects such as old armoured vehicles and suchlike.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
CatShooter said:
bayou shooter said:
So, what's the difference between a "a tiny bit" and "doesn't decay much, if at all"?

My point was that whatever spin decay there may be, it's inconsequential according to Newton's first law of motion, and the bullet just gets more stable as the distance goes on.

Interesting keyhole pictures you have there, any details available such as caliber, bullet length and weight, barrel twist, muzzle velocity, etc.

"So, what's the difference between a "a tiny bit" and "doesn't decay much, if at all"?

The difference is there is no "... if at all?" It does decay, butnot inpreportion to the losses incured in forward velocity.


"My point was that whatever spin decay there may be, it's inconsequential according to Newton's first law of motion...

??? Newton's first law has nothing to do with anything here.
Newton's first law states that a body at rest tends to stay at rest and a body in motion tends to stay in motion. If I impart a spin rate of 100,000 RPM on an object, it will keep spinning at that rate unless something slows it down. There really is nothing to slow down the spin rate of a bullet flying through the air. Certainly not something that would have a measurable effect in the few seconds of flight.


"... and the bullet just gets more stable as the distance goes on."

Not possible. Spinning objects do not get more stable if the rate of spin stays the same or slowly diminishes.

Why not? The overturning forces engendered by air resistance due to the forward motion of the bullet are diminishing as the forward velocity decays. Since the spin does not decay anywhere near the rate at which the forward velocity decays, the overall stability of the bullet increases. Until it gets near transonic.
 
Laurie, that was an interesting read. I believe there was a tactic in use at the beginning of the last century whereby large groups of riflemen would be ordered to set their iron sights to the long distances for which they were graduated, like 1500 meters or 2000 yards or what not, aim at a designated point and fire as a group. This was indirect fire of course, but it was hoped that a few of the hundreds or thousands of bullets dumped in one area would find a mark. Heavy machine guns were sometimes employed in the same fashion. I haven't a clue if that was effective or used very much, but I would thing bullets tumbling after going transonic would make this somewhat pointless. I've only ever seen a few references to this volley-type fire so maybe it was never used.
 
yes, that was 'volley fire', and early British smallbore military rifles had special sights mounted on the side of the stock forend and alongside the action - they took over from the maximum ranges on the ordinary rearsight and were calibrated up to some fantastic distances. The idea was that a large body of riflemen, say company strength, would fire together en masse at large area targets, say a cavalry detachment or an opposing infantry battalion forming up. It was tried a few times in the South African War of 1898 to 1902 against Boer horsemen and so far as I know never had any success despite the very clear South African air that allowed such long-distance aiming. The Boers had more sense with their 7mm Mausers using their horsemen as mounted infantry, riding to within 200-500 metres and shooting the stuffing out of Brit infantry before saddling up and getting out of Dodge while the opposition was still reeling and its cavalry appeared.

Despite their general uselessness, they were fitted to the Long Lees of the late 1880s to early 19th century, the SMLE from 1903 until 1916 when the slightly simplified wartime Mk III* was introduced, and to the Pattern 1913 and 1914 rifles which you guys know as the .303 Enfield made by Winchester, Remington, and Eddystone. The Remington engineered conversion to .30-06 as your M1917 sensibly omitted these sights and in later general overhauls, many rifles had their volley sights removed - but a surprising number are still around with them.

Here's a forum link with photographs. Note the range is set on the foresight not the rearsight as per nearly all normal iron rifle sights. The distances are from 1,500 yards to somewhere way over 2,000.

http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=24842

(I have read of a Match Rifle escapade from the 303 days that used these sights and the target was a huge flat horizontal tarpaulin several hundred square yards area. What percentage of bullets hit it, I don't know.) Apart from wind and bullet stability issues, I gather the main reason for the military failure was the difficulty of even half accurate range estimation in the field at ranges of a mile or more.

MGs were used in WW1 as mini artillery towards the end of the war with machinegun battalions massing scores of guns and firing on fixed elevations and traverses mostly during the night when the other side would have ration and ammunition carriers, relief and working companies moving around in the support and communications trenches and even further back in the open on back-up roads. At extreme 4,000-5,000 metre ranges, the bullets plunged downwards so most trenches didn't provide protection and although going very slowly and maybe tumbling, a 174gn Mk7 303 bullet would still injure or kill an unprotected man or horse. With the nature of trench warfare, targets could be plotted and ranged just as for artillery fire.

If you read Hatcher's Notebook, he tells of how the US Expeditionary Force in France was very dissatisfied with its Colt MGs and the original 150gn FB / 2,700 fps .30-06 round whose extreme range was 1,000 yards less than that of the .303, 8mm Lebel, and 7.92X57 ammo used by the other combatants. The M1 heavy long-range bulleted .30-06 was developed after the war and introduced in 1925 to overcome this, but by the time of the US entry into WW2, it had already been dropped and the 150gn M2 introduced.

The M1 173gn bullet survived in match / sniper versions and no doubt influenced Sierra in its heavier bullet designs in the company's early days. It had a 7-calibre radius nose which is the norm for older Sierra MKs and a very long tail section with a 9-degree taper. Hatcher says that Frankford Arsenal under Col. Townsend Whelen experimented with BT angles from 1 to 12-deg and settled on 9-deg as providing the best L-R results. (Bryan Litz reckons that 7-8 deg is the optimum form in a modern high B-C match bullet and that's what you find in most recent Berger designs.)
 
bayou shooter said:
So, what's the difference between a "a tiny bit" and "doesn't decay much, if at all"?

My point was that whatever spin decay there may be, it's inconsequential according to Newton's first law of motion, and the bullet just gets more stable as the distance goes on.

Interesting keyhole pictures you have there, any details available such as caliber, bullet length and weight, barrel twist, muzzle velocity, etc.

.224"
0.665"
50gr
14"
3,500 fps
Target @ 100 yards.

What is etc???

Do you need scope power?
 
bayou shooter said:
CatShooter said:
bayou shooter said:
So, what's the difference between a "a tiny bit" and "doesn't decay much, if at all"?

My point was that whatever spin decay there may be, it's inconsequential according to Newton's first law of motion, and the bullet just gets more stable as the distance goes on.

Interesting keyhole pictures you have there, any details available such as caliber, bullet length and weight, barrel twist, muzzle velocity, etc.

"So, what's the difference between a "a tiny bit" and "doesn't decay much, if at all"?

The difference is there is no "... if at all?" It does decay, butnot inpreportion to the losses incured in forward velocity.


"My point was that whatever spin decay there may be, it's inconsequential according to Newton's first law of motion...

??? Newton's first law has nothing to do with anything here.
Newton's first law states that a body at rest tends to stay at rest and a body in motion tends to stay in motion. If I impart a spin rate of 100,000 RPM on an object, it will keep spinning at that rate unless something slows it down. There really is nothing to slow down the spin rate of a bullet flying through the air. Certainly not something that would have a measurable effect in the few seconds of flight.


"... and the bullet just gets more stable as the distance goes on."

Not possible. Spinning objects do not get more stable if the rate of spin stays the same or slowly diminishes.

Why not? The overturning forces engendered by air resistance due to the forward motion of the bullet are diminishing as the forward velocity decays. Since the spin does not decay anywhere near the rate at which the forward velocity decays, the overall stability of the bullet increases. Until it gets near transonic.

"If I impart a spin rate of 100,000 RPM on an object, it will keep spinning at that rate unless something slows it down. There really is nothing to slow down the spin rate of a bullet flying through the air. Certainly not something that would have a measurable effect in the few seconds of flight."

Do you REALLY believe that?... it is called "Air resistance".... spin a cylinder that has 6 ridges on the outside that are 4 thou high, at ~250,000 rpm and you don't think air resistance slows it down... you're kidding??

"The overturning forces engendered by air resistance due to the forward motion of the bullet are diminishing as the forward velocity decays."

There is no such thing as the "over turning force"... no where in physics is there mention of such a force.
You can have any opinion you want - the 9mm is better than the 45, blonds are better than brunettes, but you are not allowed to make up your own science.

"Until it gets near transonic."

Just EXACTLY what happens when, "Until it gets near transonic." ...
Explain it in real words, not some meaningless, made up, gobbled-gook, techno-babble.

I spent two years at Columbia University, in NYC doing the ballistics of small particles in Helium and Methane, on a research grant from Consolidated Gas...... where did you do your work???

The BS stops here.
 
Man it's getting COLD in here......Somebody start the campfire. Bring hot chocolate and marshmellos. I'll bring the guitar and WE CAN ALL SING KUMBAYA.
 
Um... the overturning force (or moment) is just what happens when you push on something in a way that will overturn it. Try it. Push on a lamp in your living room. It will overturn. Same with bullets. It's simple in concept, and has been theorized and measured to death by the US military and aeronautical engineers in general. I can't believe this is even being questioned.
 
damoncali said:
Um... the overturning force (or moment) is just what happens when you push on something in a way that will overturn it. Try it. Push on a lamp in your living room. It will overturn. Same with bullets. It's simple in concept, and has been theorized and measured to death by the US military and aeronautical engineers in general. I can't believe this is even being questioned.

Sorry, but your definition does not meet the laws of physics... Newton's First Law of Motion - there has never been a single exception to it in 327 years - if you have found one, write it up and send it to the:

Noble Prize Committee.
Oslo Norway
Att Physics committee

If you are right, you are a definite shoe in the a Noble prize - worth about 1.3 million US dollars, plus you get a university named after you, and you will make roughly $250,000 a year traveling around the world, giving lectures. So have at it.
 
Look up "lift". It's exactly the same thing. The overturning moment is the moment that comes from the lift force which is what tends to push the bullet in the direction the nose is pointing as it flies with yaw. This is high school physics, not nobel prize material.
 

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