Trailboss reduced loads 223 Information

[Grum]

Hi all,
I got pretty angry trying to post this stuff last time- for some reason the images would not go through.

Many of you guys have helped me in the past and i hope these images (information) will be of help to others..

223 trailboss results using 40gn/45gn projectiles- Very important to notice that it isnt worth going above around 8.8gn (velocity comes down)... (Neck sized and minimally full sized brass showed simular results)
20" howa mini action, 1 in 8 twist..
Acuraccy has been VERY good but does occasionally throw a shot (still working on that)

 

[Grum]

It is hard to tell from the results but the 40gn Nosler seems to have an edge accuracy wise.. It also calculated a lot better with balistics... I'm hoping the projectile will not "over expand" at these reduced velocities (havent tried them on game yet).. Hope they will be usefull rabbit and fox loads.. (minimal damage and minimal "attention")
Noise is VERY reduced and POI is only around -1.5" at 100M (compared to most of my standard loads)

 

[johnfred1965]

Have you tried to go subsonic with these bullets? It would be the equivilent to a 22lr, and even quieter without the crack of the bullet.

 

[dolek]

What size groups are you getting ? When you get a flier does it sound/feel different ? I have been experimenting with this powder in 30 cal. lately, I am gaining on it.

 

[Grum]

I am feeling a bit lazy to take photos to post tonight but they are coming (targets)
These tests were originally "satterlee" tests, but to be honest i find the method doesnt really work but is very handy for other data..

Trailboss is very particular to work with, the powder like space in the brass- i have played with it for months in 222, 223 and 308.. The other thing to note is that i am finding inconsistant neck expansion in the fired brass- maybe inconsitant brass hardness or maybe inconsistant burn??

Best load by a small margin for me has been 8.8gn (even though 8.7 looks better on the graph), i am tending to find best groups are nearly always <> best extreame spread..

And to answer the subsonic question- All well and fine for noise, problem is the low velocities are very subseptable to wind drift and drop too much to be "mixed up" with my other loads on a night. (get a headache just thinking about it )

Before i post the photos, i will say that i am not happy unles loads are under 3/4" at 100M- i am well and truly getting that except for pesty shots that "make up there own mind" and take the group out to 2.5" on a too frequent occasion..

I am thinking on many occasions others "bad experiences" with trailboss have a lot to do with wind... Low velocities really let the wind party!

 

[Grum]

The interrest talked me into it- I would have liked to show full targets but these single target photos give a better idea on what i am seeing, the full targets have large seating depth changes or powder changes and would likely put most off... Over a period of months these groups actually are typical of my final load... These are also genuine 100M groups shot at Eagle park Australia (which is famous for wind)-- I tend to think wind, my rests (and ME) make these loads really hard to ever get much better, but im working on it

Hope you all appreciate my honesty

 

[Grum]

I have been recommending to friends that 8.7gn is a good load to start with, vary seating depth until the load groups (seating depth is huge with these loads)..
Light projectiles will obviously not be close to the lands on the rifling with most guns, i suggest start with as long as posible whilst the projectile has still got good bearing surface in the neck- load 3 or 5 shot groups at maybe 10thou increments.. the load will "magically" start grouping at the right seating depth.

Cannot promice that there wont be fliers though

 

[Grum]

I think the other thing is that (although not talked about much)... Bullet bullet balance consistancy can show VERY big variations on group size when they are spun too fast- 1 in 8 twist is spinning the crap out of these light projectiles!

 

[Dolomite_supafly]

I would use 69 SMKs in my 9 twist. I would load the bullets backwards to be able to identify them. It also helped them hit straight.

 

[dolek]

Thanks Grum, much appreciated . Like you, I noticed seating depth is a huge part of the equation . In 223 I had success quite quickly, I just started with the 308 yesterday . I can't handle recoil any longer but I sure can shoot the old 308 at paper .

These 5 shot groups at 100 yards are my first attempt with the 308,very course test . 1 grain increments between groups . First shot on a cold(20 degrees,snow/wind) clean bore was a little slow...bullet went in sideways . I have all winter and plenty of supplies, I should be able to come up with something accurate enough for backyard range shooting.

 

[DBLNUT]

Hi all,
I got pretty angry trying to post this stuff last time- for some reason the images would not go through.

Many of you guys have helped me in the past and i hope these images (information) will be of help to others..

223 trailboss results using 40gn/45gn projectiles- Very important to notice that it isnt worth going above around 8.8gn (velocity comes down)... (Neck sized and minimally full sized brass showed simular results)
20" howa mini action, 1 in 8 twist..
Acuraccy has been VERY good but does occasionally throw a shot (still working on that)View attachment 1154575 View attachment 1154576

Why not Blue Dot? I have been loading 10gn with either the 40BT or 50BT,

40BT at 2550fps and the 50BT at 2350FPS, accuracy has been great with the 50 grouping around .625/.750 for 5 shots.

Gun is a Tikka T3X 1-8" with a Vortex GE

 

[Lefty Trigger]

A guy in our club shoots TrailBoss in his 243 with amazing accuracy and stupid slow. We have told him several times that the score don't count if the bullets bounce before they hit the target
I shoot a lot of it in my 357 mag loaded with 148gr DEWC for our bullseye league and not to toot my own horn but I do pretty darn good with it, won last years league and killing it so far this year.

 

[Rdlningcltchdmpr]

Not really true ! A 1-8 Twist spins all bullet's at the same rate . the only problem that could happen is if velocity was very high, which it is not. Over spinning a bullet doesn't hurt accuracy.

 

[Rdlningcltchdmpr]

A guy in our club shoots TrailBoss in his 243 with amazing accuracy and stupid slow. We have told him several times that the score don't count if the bullets bounce before they hit the target
I shoot a lot of it in my 357 mag loaded with 148gr DEWC for our bullseye league and not to toot my own horn but I do pretty darn good with it, won last years league and killing it so far this year.

Toot-toot !

 

[Rdlningcltchdmpr]

I think the other thing is that (although not talked about much)... Bullet bullet balance consistancy can show VERY big variations on group size when they are spun too fast- 1 in 8 twist is spinning the crap out of these light projectiles!

Over spinning doesn't hurt accuracy. Proven- proven- proven.

 

[robert8904]

Look at a Lyman cast bullet handbook. I just sub jacketed bullets in the cast bullet loads and stay away from max loads. I have found Trail Boss works better in larger rifle cases. Lyman shows load data for 44, 55 and 60 grain bullets in 223. Velocities are 1700-2400 range with pistol powders like Unique, 2400, 4227 and my favorite, Accurate #9. #9 meters extremely well and in various 55gr bullets is highly accurate in the 1900-2100 fps range. No pressure signs and very quiet.

One odd thing I've found shooting reduced loads in bottle necked cartridges is the shoulder datums are very often actually set back a few thousands after firing. I'm assuming the low pressures aren't enough to fully expand the brass and overcome firing pin inertia.

I shoot a lot of reduced loads in 223, 243 and 308. They're cheap, fun, accurate, don't heat up the barrel very fast and give me something to shoot while the rifle with the full power loads cools off.

 

[Grum]

Not really true ! A 1-8 Twist spins all bullet's at the same rate . the only problem that could happen is if velocity was very high, which it is not. Over spinning a bullet doesn't hurt accuracy.

good point.. Many of benchrest guys do make comments about bullets spinning too fast and exagerating any out of balance that the projectile may have though.

 

[Grum]

Why not Blue Dot? I have been loading 10gn with either the 40BT or 50BT,

40BT at 2550fps and the 50BT at 2350FPS, accuracy has been great with the 50 grouping around .625/.750 for 5 shots.

Gun is a Tikka T3X 1-8" with a Vortex GE

dont think i have ever seen bluedot here in Australia..
I do load medium loads (nosler 40gn) with 18gn of adi2207 (H4198?), They shoot very well and dont seem to have the random fliers issue.. Case is around 75% full and velocity is up around 2700fps for a memory...

 

[Brians356]

I like H4895 for reduced loads. Hodgdon states that 60% of their published max load is safe. For 40-gr bullet in 223 that's 16.5 grs and likely near 2000 fps (I've not verified.)
-

 

[SEM]

HS-7 works as well as blue dot I know no longer produced, Maybe in Aussie land you might find some, I ended up with a jug of it. I found it runs 1 grain more than blue dot for similar results. On real small charges I use synthetic cotton balls pull enough to make a plug over the charge to keep it nearer the primer, really improved my groups. You do need to take care to transport the rounds bullet end up. Magnum primers are helpful also