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To Pillar Bed Or Not To Pillar Bed

I finally got my barreled action back from SSS. Its a pre-accutrigger Savage 110 chambered in 6mm BR. This will be a varmint rig only. My question is, do I really need to pillar bed it when putting it in a Boyd's laminate stock? The only reason I ask is my 243 Win is bedded in a Boyd's stock with no pillars and it has served me well the past 10+ years. With the SSS trigger and this model of savage I will need to modify / notch the pillar to get it to fit correctly and if there is no real benefit then why do it. I torque everything so there is little chance of crushing the stock. If I just bed it with no pillars its only a matter of removing a little stock material and then bedding it.

Opinions Please!! Pro's - Con's
 
I built a Br rifle on a Shehane stock probably 5 years ago. Originally with no pillars to test this. The rifle performed excellent. In its prime I installed pillars and re-bedded it. There was no change that I could see at all. The function of pillars in my opinion is to prevent stock damage from over torquing. In a laminate or fiberglass stock I dont think they are needed at all. Actually I think you may actually get better bedding contact with out them. Epoxy shrinks as it cures, pillars dont. As the bedding is curing and pulling away from the action the pillars are not. You can see this when you take the action out, look around the pillars and you will see its the only place the action really touches. I keep my pillars short of the action to help prevent that.
 
Pillar bedding is really not that difficult and assures the torquing does not alter mechanics.

Do it, pillars are readily available/makeable for the Savage action.

Larry
Tinkerer
 
I believe pillar bedding helps maintain zero through changes, like temp and humidity. I bed the pillars a little short, then after dry I bed the while thing and over the pillars. Matt
 
I think we're back to considering the Indian and the arrow. A wood laminate stock is very crush resistant . I'm with Alex on this one. I think the laminate may be stronger than the fiberglass. Now, if I were building a high end competition gun for a top national competitor it would be different.
 
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I built a Br rifle on a Shehane stock probably 5 years ago. Originally with no pillars to test this. The rifle performed excellent. In its prime I installed pillars and re-bedded it. There was no change that I could see at all. The function of pillars in my opinion is to prevent stock damage from over torquing. In a laminate or fiberglass stock I dont think they are needed at all. Actually I think you may actually get better bedding contact with out them. Epoxy shrinks as it cures, pillars dont. As the bedding is curing and pulling away from the action the pillars are not. You can see this when you take the action out, look around the pillars and you will see its the only place the action really touches. I keep my pillars short of the action to help prevent that.


Thanks Alex, you just confirmed my assumption.
 
Not all fiberglass stocks are constructed the same. Some have very dense fill material in the action area, others do not. For that reason the answer as to whether to pillar bed is "it depends". Also the type of action matters. If you are working with a Savage action the amount that is cut away around the rear action screw makes the wood (even laminated) much easier to compress than it is at the front screw. I ran into this years ago when modifying a trigger guard for an aftermarket trigger. At first I thought that I had relieved enough of the guard,because there was clearance with no torque on the action screw. When I tightened the screw metal touched metal. I had to cut more clearance, or I could have installed pillars. That was a long time ago, the stock was a laminated birch factory varmint stock. I have never seen a well done pillar bedding job cause a problem. For me, they are generally a good idea, but you need to pay attention to what you are doing, and check your work with a dial indicator. I believe that Alex Wheeler has made one of his excellent videos on how he does that. Unlike some (many?) I prefer "bridge" bedding. It may not look as elegant, but for the occasional gunsmith I think that there is less chance of ending up with stress in the bedding job, and I have seen it work very well as far as accuracy.
 
I do it because it's easy,even turning my own aluminum pillars but.....

Looking at a typical laminated stock,layers of maple,with epoxy sandwiched every 1/16" ....in the vertical plane.Just sayin,some folks "pour" epoxy pillars and are happy.I'd say the engineering of the layers might....even be stronger in compression than a straight epoxy pillar.

You can also make a case,albeit week,IMO...for expansion differences when introducing aluminum as a pillar...vs either lam or epoxy pillar.I'll keep using aluminum,because it spreads the load into the wood better,radially.YMMV
 
After a bit of researcho_O, I finally found the article on pillar bedding, written by Kelly McMillan, about 5 years ago.

"I think I can speak to this issue because my father, Gale McMillan was the originator of the practice. It came out of necessity and had nothing to do with accuracy. In the early days of fiberglass stocks, both Brown Precision Stocks (the originator) and McMillan Stocks were made using the lightest material we could find. As a result, both had a similar problem. Brown used polyurethane foam to blow out the cloth against the mold, and because they molded their receiver area and barrel channel's in, there was foam under the action. We used a very light filler made of epoxy resin and micro balloons. With both stocks you could crush the material between the receiver and the trigger guard by tightening the guard screws. The more you tightened, the more the receiver would move and the more your shots would wander. To solve this problem, my father would drill the guard screw holes out to 3/8". He would wax the screws up and then let the bedding material fill in the hole around the screws during the bedding process. After the bedding material set, he would drill the holes out just slightly bigger than the guard screws so the pillars were made of bedding material but they were dense enough to stop the receiver area of the stock from compressing. Eventually, we found aluminum pillars to be easier and just as effective, so we switched".

"Word spreads fast in the BenchRest community, and soon everyone was pillar bedding. Today, we refer to it as state of the art. But, technology and materials have changed over the years and all but our EDGE Tech and benchrest stocks have a dense enough material in the action area that using normal torque settings on the guard screws the material will not compress at all. Gale was the first to glue a benchrest action into a rifle. The Marines tested the stocks we made for them under 100 lbs of torque and got less than .0001 compression on the receiver area. We recommend 45-50 inch pounds on the guard screws".

"One last thing…. pillars do one thing and one thing only, stop compression. They don't increase accuracy or reliability and they don't allow you to remove and replace the barreled action any more often without degradation of the bedding. If a McMillan stock is bedded properly using a good compound, like Marine-Tex, pillars are unnecessary. So why do we use them? Because it's state of the art, and that is the way people expect it to be done".
 
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I believe it is easier to get a stress free bedding job using pillars, at least in my personal experience. Like Boyd, I have never seen pillars degrade accuracy. Then again, maybe I am not that good at bedding.:D:D:eek:o_O

Paul

www.boltfluting.com
 
My only concern now is the rear screw and if there is enough material there to keep it from flexing once tightened. I think I will relieve the trigger area first and then experiment with the rear screw to see how much flex if any there is.

This is my complaint with Savage rifles, too many variables from one to the other. This project was supposed to be a quick and cheap / budget build that would give me the chance to try the 6BR to evaluate it for a future custom build and it has been a pain from the start. I should have learned my lesson from my Model 11 LWH build but I had the action sitting around and wanted to use it or sale it.
 
I built a Br rifle on a Shehane stock probably 5 years ago. Originally with no pillars to test this. The rifle performed excellent. In its prime I installed pillars and re-bedded it. There was no change that I could see at all. The function of pillars in my opinion is to prevent stock damage from over torquing. In a laminate or fiberglass stock I dont think they are needed at all. Actually I think you may actually get better bedding contact with out them. Epoxy shrinks as it cures, pillars dont. As the bedding is curing and pulling away from the action the pillars are not. You can see this when you take the action out, look around the pillars and you will see its the only place the action really touches. I keep my pillars short of the action to help prevent that.
If you are referring to the McMillan stocks, with their high density fill in the action area, I would tend to agree, but for the full shell designs that Lee Six taught Kelbly's how to make, I believe that the situation is different. In the past I have done a lot of successful varminting with a Savage that had one of their laminated stocks. I shot it as it came, bedding and all. The barrel was free floated from the factory. For any serious work I would never do that, but since it consistently shot five shot groups (with handloads) into 7/16 or better, I left it alone. It was a very good varmint rifle, that I developed a lot of confidence in. If, on the other hand my goal was to extract the highest level of accuracy from a rifle it would be either be pillar bedded, glued in, or both, just to make sure that I had left nothing on the table accuracy wise, with the single exception of a McMillan stock that has dense fill under the action. I do not think that they need pillars.
 
I vote for pillars. Any stock may shoot well without them but pillars can only help. They prevent excessive torque from compressing the stock and inducing stress. They also help maintain your zero when you remove and then re-install the action into the stock. If you have a rifle that shoots well without pillars and you dont plan to add them, i would recommend leaving it in the stock and not risk changing the torque and stressing it.
 
I've owned a number of Savages and Boyds stocks. Its unlikely the recoil lug will fit flush in the stock, and should be bedded to assure proper contact. Its a pretty quick project to do this. There is not much material between the front action screw hole and the mag well, so be careful and use a thin wall pillar. On Savages its always recommended to float the rear tang and torque around 10 ft-lb less than the front.
 

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