Tips/Advice - working on custom 1884 Springfield Trapdoor Carbine.

[Peaceful_Gojira]

Howdy everyone! New to the forum here, but an avid gun enthusiast and recent SDI grad here trying to get some advice, and my foot in the door with other fellow gun enthusiasts and fellow gunsmiths-in-the-making online!

So as the title explains: I recently acquired a tailor-made/custom 1884 trapdoor that has a lot of remanufactured and reworked-custom parts, except the original bolt assembly, receiver and possibly the stock (uncertain).

However, this is not the concern. My concern is I was shooting modern loads through it (about 20ish rounds through it total, over 2 range days) which was not as concerning if it had been a full original, because this barrel was completely new; checked that before I even bought the gun, barrel was clearly rotated on a lathe and machine milled, which is great as a collector's/hunting rifle. After realizing how stupid it was of me to do that, I wanted to ensure I hadn't damaged any internal components. To my relief, nothing was cracked/chipped, warped or busted from my negligence and recklessness (nor was anyone ever hurt). So, until I get cowboy loads, or decide to dabble in reloading .45-70 gov't loads myself, it's gonna stay on my weapon rack as a cool gun to 'play' with and handle/get familiar with.

That said: I noticed something after disassembly/reassembly: first off, the internal side of the stock where all the hammer system is housed, and the FCG/trigger assembly is housed looks VERY shady- there's wood glue, inconsistent carving shapes out of the wood, etc. Additionally, the hammer plate that holds the entire hammer system in place is slightly bulging from the rifle. It still works, but I wonder if this is causing my main issue I discovered: the hammer is not safe.
At rest, it's inert- nothing wrong there, of course. At half cock, the sear engages and catches on the internal tumbler's 2nd notch just fine, and any amount of modest/reasonable force on the gun itself, the hammer, or the trigger does not send the hammer forward- okay, good. Then, I pull the hammer at full-cock (ready to fire position): if I so much as tap the back of the hammer with my index finger with enough gentle, yet firm force (think tapping your finger on a table or your leg like you're waiting patiently for the train to come, the doctor to take you back, or what have you), that hammer gets sent. If I so much as bump the gun firmly enough (but not the equivalent of me dropping the gun or anything rash like that), the hammer goes off. From my experience and my honest and humble opinion: this is not safe to shoot! I wanted to know what I should do about this?

What I did find to be the likely suspect is either a bad sear, or worn down notches on the tumbler. Since it's not an original gun, I'm beyond worrying about replacing components, or botching something that can be replaced easily (a spring, the hammer plate, etc.). I haven't looked closer at those two things yet, as I only just discovered this in the last few days, but I also wanted to ask if this is actually pretty standard with these guns too; am I overreacting, or is this a legitimately good concern to have about the safety and longevity of this rifle, and it's functions?

I'd love to hear your thoughts, concerns, or suggestions.
Thanks for listenin' and reading!

Stay safe, shoot straight.

 

[Will Henry]

It sounds to me like someone has tried to change the engagement angle on the full-cock notch and went too far. the alternative explanation may be that the lock is being distorted by a poor fitting job, but I think the first assumption is most likely. Take the lock off and check it out off the rifle. If it does appear to be the engagement which is the problem, you may be able to correct it. WH

 

[Peaceful_Gojira]

It sounds to me like someone has tried to change the engagement angle on the full-cock notch and went too far. the alternative explanation may be that the lock is being distorted by a poor fitting job, but I think the first assumption is most likely. Take the lock off and check it out off the rifle. If it does appear to be the engagement which is the problem, you may be able to correct it. WH

Sounded like it to me, too. Though the internal housing of the stock is disgusting (inconsistent cutouts and carving strokes, wood glue used, etc.), I would like to also at some point, preferably with more professional work, have someone make this stock much better and if possible, restored (because the wood is absolutely gorgeous). But: due to the housing inside the stock being shoddy, that is why the plate housing the hammer system is so wonky and not seated flush against the stock once I tighten it with the fastener.

As for your solution, would it be wrong or just redundant to try also to add some soldering onto the sear, and then file it down, blue it/polish it? I can always take a sketch and trace the outline of the sear or something to the equivalent, and then try to extend the sear lip out bit a very small & micro-amount? Push comes to shove, and it screws it up, all I gotta do is heat up the soldering again, and it falls right off? Thoughts?

But conclusively, I'll try your solution first! Thanks WH!
Stay safe, shoot straight.

 

[Bob3700]

Sounded like it to me, too. Though the internal housing of the stock is disgusting (inconsistent cutouts and carving strokes, wood glue used, etc.), I would like to also at some point, preferably with more professional work, have someone make this stock much better and if possible, restored (because the wood is absolutely gorgeous). But: due to the housing inside the stock being shoddy, that is why the plate housing the hammer system is so wonky and not seated flush against the stock once I tighten it with the fastener.

As for your solution, would it be wrong or just redundant to try also to add some soldering onto the sear, and then file it down, blue it/polish it? I can always take a sketch and trace the outline of the sear or something to the equivalent, and then try to extend the sear lip out bit a very small & micro-amount? Push comes to shove, and it screws it up, all I gotta do is heat up the soldering again, and it falls right off? Thoughts?

But conclusively, I'll try your solution first! Thanks WH!
Stay safe, shoot straight.

Solder in this application will be way too soft, not a good idea.

 

[Will Henry]

Yes, soldering is too soft. If necessary, one can weld it up and case harden the sear after it is cut to final shape, or nearly so. There is a little latitude as far as Hammer travel is concerned, but. just how much is hard to say without having the part. WH

 

[D the D]

Since it's a parts build, there's no crime in replacing the worn or buggered parts.
Save a lot of trouble and just replace them.
S&S Firearms Products original Trapdoor parts

 

[Peaceful_Gojira]

Since it's a parts build, there's no crime in replacing the worn or buggered parts.
Save a lot of trouble and just replace them.
S&S Firearms Products original Trapdoor parts

Yeah, I've thought about that, but seeing as this is already a modified firearm with lacking original parts, I'd hate to order an original part off an original gun, and slap it into this gun.

That said, it would be great if there was a gunsmith/shop or other firearm business out there that remanufactured functioning parts using the same, if not better materials as the intended part for said older firearms.
If that were the case, I'd throw my money their way in a heart beat. But alas, I suppose that hasn't gained a corner in the market, yet...

I will consider this option, though. Thanks D.

 

[Peaceful_Gojira]

Solder in this application will be way too soft, not a good idea.

That's what I thought, but I figured I'd ask anyways.
Thanks for the heads up, Bob!

 

[Peaceful_Gojira]

Yes, soldering is too soft. If necessary, one can weld it up and case harden the sear after it is cut to final shape, or nearly so. There is a little latitude as far as Hammer travel is concerned, but. just how much is hard to say without having the part. WH

Yeah, I figured as much. It would be ideal to try welding instead, and then shape it down and polish and seal it again with bluing or a similar compound.

Another option I saw someone do online was to take a type of fastener/screw and tap the one unused and untouched side and tap it through to where the sear engages the full cock face of the tumbler, and they then screwed in the fastener, and the sear engaged well against it. It also converted the gun into a hair-trigger, rather than a long-trigger pull.

Only issue with that is, my gun is modified with a hair-trigger already! It has 2 triggers on it: front is the actual trigger pull, the rear/second trigger is to engage the trigger the instant it is pulled, so I actually don't know if this would avail much? I also have little confidence in doing something THAT damaging to the part, but it would definitely be a problem-solver, as all I'd need to do is get a few different-lengthened fasteners and then size them down to my liking, and that way I can experiment with how much of a trigger pull I need to make it engage the hammer at full-cock, and thus fire the rifle.

But this is all speculative. I gotta try the usual suspect methods first.
I'll give your initial recommendations a try first. Best case scenario, it's just a terrible housing for the hammer plate, and I gotta gingerly carve out more from the inside of the stock (where the wood is already pretty nasty looking), clean it up a bit, and then reseat the hammer plate, with all its internal housing of the hammer system.

 

[Uncle Bruce]

Yeah, I figured as much. It would be ideal to try welding instead, and then shape it down and polish and seal it again with bluing or a similar compound.

Another option I saw someone do online was to take a type of fastener/screw and tap the one unused and untouched side and tap it through to where the sear engages the full cock face of the tumbler, and they then screwed in the fastener, and the sear engaged well against it. It also converted the gun into a hair-trigger, rather than a long-trigger pull.

Only issue with that is, my gun is modified with a hair-trigger already! It has 2 triggers on it: front is the actual trigger pull, the rear/second trigger is to engage the trigger the instant it is pulled, so I actually don't know if this would avail much? I also have little confidence in doing something THAT damaging to the part, but it would definitely be a problem-solver, as all I'd need to do is get a few different-lengthened fasteners and then size them down to my liking, and that way I can experiment with how much of a trigger pull I need to make it engage the hammer at full-cock, and thus fire the rifle.

But this is all speculative. I gotta try the usual suspect methods first.
I'll give your initial recommendations a try first. Best case scenario, it's just a terrible housing for the hammer plate, and I gotta gingerly carve out more from the inside of the stock (where the wood is already pretty nasty looking), clean it up a bit, and then reseat the hammer plate, with all its internal housing of the hammer system.

Have you tried to adjust the "set" trigger pull weight, If it has a screw for that?

 

[Peaceful_Gojira]

Have you tried to adjust the "set" trigger pull weight, If it has a screw for that?

I have, but the issue isn't the trigger strictly. This thing is flying forward just by tapping on the back of the hammer, or giving it the most gentle bump on the gun itself. That's a very big safety hazard, without a doubt!

 

[Peaceful_Gojira]

After a closer inspection, it would appear that either the sear face is worn down so that it's practically flush with the catch on the tumbler (which is not ideal, as that would require the smallest amount of wiggle or external manipulation/influence to engage the hammer to cause a discharge of the gun).
It really may be as simple as gently filing down the sear, or reshaping the sear by heating it up and then gently tapping the face so that it's a little more shallow. I'm still on the diagnosing phase of this project, but I wanted to say that it's clearly the sear/tumbler engaging too flush with the notch. I thought maybe the set trigger was influencing this or something, but the fact is: I have it outside the gun right now, and looking at it shows that the sear and tumbler notch are at the same level, rather than the sear setting a little below the notch. So it's either the tumbler or the sear that is to blame.
Thoughts?

 

[Sniperhandle]

After a closer inspection, it would appear that either the sear face is worn down so that it's practically flush with the catch on the tumbler (which is not ideal, as that would require the smallest amount of wiggle or external manipulation/influence to engage the hammer to cause a discharge of the gun).
It really may be as simple as gently filing down the sear, or reshaping the sear by heating it up and then gently tapping the face so that it's a little more shallow. I'm still on the diagnosing phase of this project, but I wanted to say that it's clearly the sear/tumbler engaging too flush with the notch. I thought maybe the set trigger was influencing this or something, but the fact is: I have it outside the gun right now, and looking at it shows that the sear and tumbler notch are at the same level, rather than the sear setting a little below the notch. So it's either the tumbler or the sear that is to blame.
Thoughts?

There is usually a flat spring with a screw in it for adjusting the "Set" I would try adjusting it before you mess something up on it. Pics would be helpful.

 

[Peaceful_Gojira]

There is usually a flat spring with a screw in it for adjusting the "Set" I would try adjusting it before you mess something up on it. Pics would be helpful.

Actually, you were right! The set screw needed some adjusting. The set trigger was always raised up so it was brushing the engagement for the sear. I evened out the screw set, and also discovered that this tumbler in the hammer system has a small aftermarket piece that makes the sear ignore catching the half-cock notch on a trigger pull. It's supposed to engage a fail-safe if, say, the trigger was barely pulled or the sear was bumped. It forced the hammer into the half-cock safety!

So I removed that, AND also changed the level on the set trigger screw, and presto! The gun is not only fixed, but safer! I tried smacking the hammer, and now when I do that, the "safety net" engages and stops the hammer from slamming into the internal bolt & firing pin! I dry fired a few times to ensure consistency, and sure enough: half cock, full cock, hammer slips to half cock if anything BUT the trigger engages it, full trigger press/pull, hammer fires the gun!

I think the person who installed and customized this Springfield had this custom trigger and little cam pin thing that's housed on the tumbler for the sake of making it fire with the slightest pull of the trigger. Irregardless, that little cam pin thing (pictured) was making the sear ignore the half-cock notch in the tumbler.

 

[Peaceful_Gojira]

My next major question and seeking on advice/ideas is how to fix the butt plate. The last owner soldered the underside of the butt plate that fastens into the stock. There's a crack that goes completely across it, but also: this butt plate is super uncomfortable and digs into my shoulder. I have a bruise that's 3 weeks old and still yellow because of this gun! Now mind you too, as I stated before: I was reckless and ran modern loads through the gun, so maybe the recoil energy on the intended ammunition is not so bad...but even so, this butt plate digs into my shoulder!

Any ideas on either how I can shape it down and fix it, or should I just get a new butt plate entirely from a gunsmith? Thoughts? (My intention is to try and keep this original butt plate, even though it is falling apart and cracked)

 

[Sniperhandle]

What is it made of? Brass, Steel?

Either can be Tig Welded, If it's brass use silicon bronze. You will have to get the solder off of it.

 

[Peaceful_Gojira]

What is it made of? Brass, Steel?

Either can be Tig Welded, If it's brass use silicon bronze. You will have to get the solder off of it.

Hard to tell...it looks like the exterior is brass plating, but the underside (that sits against the butt of the stock) is some kind of iron? It's odd...I guess as an added question: is there a way to clearly distinguish or figure out what that metal is? I couldn't find a number or anything to identify it, but I could clearly see that the exterior is a kind of brass plating, because it doesn't match the underside.

 

[Sniperhandle]

magnet

 

[snert]

Photos would sure help in this discussion....

 

[Peaceful_Gojira]

Photos would sure help in this discussion....

Hey, sorry: yeah. I'll make a conscious effort to add photos when I get around to working on this again.
Apologies (been busy with work, obligations, etc.).