Tight Rem bolt no FP

[Sigfla]

I have removed the firing pin from my bolt to set my headspace now that I have my .204 dies. I have virgin unloaded Nosler brass, fired Hornady (that I had custom loaded when I bought the gun), and unfired Hornady. My bolt closes with some tension when the pin is installed on an empty chamber. With the pin removed on an empty chamber it closes simply via gravity. Using my virgin Nosler brass as a zero point on my headspace gauge I found the fired Hornady brass to measure +.008 compared to the Nosler. I tried chambering the fired Hornady case first and it closed with a very slight tension. My unfired Hornady case also closed with very slight tension as well as my virgin Nosler brass. I did not measure the unfired Hornady brass as it was from the same box as my fired case and I figured it would just measure somewhere between zero and -.008 anyway.

My question is, where do i go from here? I had expected my fired brass to close tightly versus with very slight tension. I had expected my virgin Nosler brass to either have very slight tension or close the bolt on its own via gravity. I have seen several videos showing proper headspace and they all seemed to close w/out tension once the fired case is sized properly. All 3 of the cases I described above closed almost identically with very slight bolt tension.

I know my chamber is tight and I have a .230 no turn neck. My rifle is a GreTan built by Greg Tannel. I don't think my neck is causing tension but maybe my tight chamber? Should I just size down my virgin Nosler .001-.002 and see if my bolt falls closed? Like I said it is closing now but with very slight tension. I wouldn't consider it tight at all but for the videos I have seen where the bolt just falls closed once they properly size a fired case.

 

[roband]

Call Greg thats thats what i did with my Tac 20.He is one sharp guy.

 

[Zero333]

use go no-go gauges and be done with it.

 

[BoydAllen]

Why all the concern about having the bolt fall closed? What exactly does that get you? If there is a slight feel starting about half way down, I don't see that you have a problem. Another thing that you might do, and share with us is to measure cases that have been fired with stout loads, for shoulder diameter, and body diameter at the same exact distance above the head, around .300". You can do the shoulder measurements with the tips of your calipers, and drop the cases into a hole in a piece of wood and lay the calipers on it, so as to measure up from the head consistently. These measurements along with the usual shoulder bump measurement will tell you how well your die matches your chamber. Let us know what you discover.

 

[ireload2]

Do you still have a plunger ejector pushing on the case?

 

[Sigfla]

Why all the concern about having the bolt fall closed? What exactly does that get you? If there is a slight feel starting about half way down, I don't see that you have a problem. Another thing that you might do, and share with us is to measure cases that have been fired with stout loads, for shoulder diameter, and body diameter at the same exact distance above the head, around .300". You can do the shoulder measurements with the tips of your calipers, and drop the cases into a hole in a piece of wood and lay the calipers on it, so as to measure up from the head consistently. These measurements along with the usual shoulder bump measurement will tell you how well your die matches your chamber. Let us know what you discover.

Well, in my inexperience I just figured thats what I needed to do based on what I have been reading/seeing. Its definitely a slight feel to close. The bolt closes very smoothly but you can definitely feel the tension on the chambered case. The gun drives tacks as it sits. I have just never loaded any of my own ammo and want to do it right. The few rounds I have fired out of it were custom ordered to match my neck diameter while I waited on my handloading gear to arrive. My biggest confusion was that a fired case measuring .008 greater than a virgin case closed in my chamber with the same tension. I figured I should feel a tight bolt close on the fired brass and maybe a slight tension on the virgin.

 

[Sigfla]

Do you still have a plunger ejector pushing on the case?

Yes, I didn't remove those. Just the firing pin. Didn't think about that.

 

[Sigfla]

BoydAllen and Ireload2 got me thinking. I am gonna try again with some virgin Hornady I have. Mixing brands and not really knowing much about the ammo I bought other than having fired cases to try may be confusing things. Also, it may just be the tension I feel against the ejector plunger. Could a min load in my fired cases have resulted in less case stretch? (Thus they still chamber with little issue in the gun after firing) and the virgin Nosler being slightly longer to start with but still within the tolerance of my chamber? (Thus they also chamber with only the tension of my plunger on the bolt).

I wonder if a stouter load would allow for a fired case to chamber as easily as mine did.

 

[Sigfla]

Do you still have a plunger ejector pushing on the case?

Did a lot more reading tonight specifically on the Remington 700 bolt. I am 99.9% sure the resistance I felt was the ejector plunger. I measured out my Nosler and fired Hornady cases again and compared them to a SAAMI drawing of the .204. I just think my Hornady didn't stretch much at 1.556 (from the case head to datum line) thus it still chambered easily with only the plunger causing bolt tension. My new untouched Nosler measured out at 1.551.

I dunno if its worth it to go further disassembling my bolt. I guess I will have to buy an ejector disassembly tool now, lol.

 

[ireload2]

The ejector is retained by a small cross pin and it is easy to tap out if you have a set of pin punches. Some hand decapping punches work also.
If you want to trap the ejector so it does not fly away you can hook a case under the extractor.

Did a lot more reading tonight specifically on the Remington 700 bolt. I am 99.9% sure the resistance I felt was the ejector plunger. I measured out my Nosler and fired Hornady cases again and compared them to a SAAMI drawing of the .204. I just think my Hornady didn't stretch much at 1.556 (from the case head to datum line) thus it still chambered easily with only the plunger causing bolt tension. My new untouched Nosler measured out at 1.551.

I dunno if its worth it to go further disassembling my bolt. I guess I will have to buy an ejector disassembly tool now, lol.

 

[Sigfla]

How tough is it to put back together that way? The Sinclair tool is 30 bucks or so with shipping so a home brew option would be nice as little as I would use it. I will say the right tool for the right job does help more often than not.

 

[ireload2]

I bought my 700s in the 60s and 70s where there were no tools on the market.
To reassemble put the spring back into the bolt face then the ejector. Use a case by hooking the rim behind the extractor and lever the ejector in place. Make sure the notch on the ejector is aligned with the position of the retaining pin and tap the pin into place. I had no trouble doing that in about 1 minute when I was about 20. I doubt that you will have any problems even if you have minimal tools.

How tough is it to put back together that way? The Sinclair tool is 30 bucks or so with shipping so a home brew option would be nice as little as I would use it. I will say the right tool for the right job does help more often than not.

 

[Sigfla]

thanks

 

[BoydAllen]

Evidently you did not make the measurements that I suggested. You might consider making them and also making the same measurement of unfired brass. I think that you are looking at a nonexistent problem. On the other hand, if you are good with tools, and have the right ones, taking the ejector out to see what the difference in feel is should not be a problem. What you really need to know are the dimensions of the cases in various conditions, new, fired and sized with proper shoulder bump. One think that I think that you need to know is that cases do not typically become tight from shoulder to head after one firing. In the past I have found that when I only have once fired brass to measure for reference that I can set my FL die to give the same shoulder to head measurement as a the once fired cases, and that with the clearance in diameter that the die produces that sized brass will chamber just fine. Generally, if I am able to, I like to neck size, load and fire a single case (using safe, stout loads) until the head to shoulder dimension stabilizes at its largest value, and bump from that reference. When a slight bump is used, it is a good idea to check all of your cases after they are sized because there will generally be some variation in the bump achieved due to variation in the hardness of the brass. On the subject of measuring cases from shoulder to head, I would caution you to measure your fired cases after the primer has either been removed, or re-seated well below flush. Also, opinions on proper bolt close can vary. I prefer not to size so that the bolt handle will fall of its own weight. I measure cases and set my dies to produce a specific clearance at the shoulder, and if that does not produce the feel that I want, I know that my die is not a proper fit for the chamber, and that I will need a different die that is slightly smaller.

 

[Sigfla]

I am definitely removing primers when measuring. Couldn't measure last night as it was late and I currently have no cases from stout loads to measure. I agree that I don't have an issue currently but I just want to properly set headspace with my new dies when I need to. All of my fired cases are once fired so you are correct that they may not have that much stretch. I literally only have 10 of my own fired cases from this gun. I can't use factory ammo due to the chamber neck size so I only have a few rounds ordered through a custom ammo mfg to play with while I get setup to load my own. I went ahead and ordered the proper tool and bench block to take out the ejector since I needed a couple of other things from Sinclair anyway.

 

[ireload2]

I have found exactly the same variations in the shoulder position of fired cases. They can easily vary .002 shorter than the real chamber length.


[QUOTE="BoydAllen, post: 36836172, member: 185107"One think that I think that you need to know is that cases do not typically become tight from shoulder to head after one firing. In the past I have found that when I only have once fired brass to measure for reference that I can set my FL die to give the same shoulder to head measurement as a the once fired cases, and that with the clearance in diameter that the die produces that sized brass will chamber just fine. Generally, if I am able to, I lick to neck size, load and fire a single case (using safe, stout loads) until the head to shoulder dimension stabilizes at its largest value, and bump from that reference. When a slight bump is used, it is a good idea to check all of your cases after they are sized because there will generally be some variation in the bump achieved due to variation in the hardness of the brass. [/QUOTE]

 

[1lnbrdg]

As you push the case into a resizing die, the more of the body that it resizes, it will push the shoulder further out.

With the die, working down, you can watch it grow and then watch it shrink on a headspace collator gauge.

Start by working the resizing die to where the brass will not chamber when partially sized (start with die set up a nickel's width from the case holder) down to where the bolt will close on the brass.

 

[Sigfla]

Extra bonus. My Sinclair tool arrived today and it works just as well on my Savage bolt also. I just need to find a small enough punch to remove the pins on both now.

 

[Sigfla]

As you push the case into a resizing die, the more of the body that it resizes, it will push the shoulder further out.

With the die, working down, you can watch it grow and then watch it shrink on a headspace collator gauge.

Start by working the resizing die to where the brass will not chamber when partially sized (start with die set up a nickel's width from the case holder) down to where the bolt will close on the brass.

That may be what I have to do with my Savage. After taking it all apart I can't close it on an empty chamber without feeling a stick. It isn't the same as my Remington bolt with the firing pin removed. I just want to make sure I am resizing the case enough.