Throwing powder charges for 223 ar15 reloading

[darkangel_r2]

Hello all. I'm looking for the opinion of people that have done thrown charges for 223 ar15 reloading. I've got sealed jugs of ar comp and sw percision rifle. I can't test these powders without opening the jugs which makes them harder to swap for other powders.

I've got several jugs of tac and 2520 and both of them performed okay but I've had better performance in previous barrels with both varget and comp. I want to volume load for this barrel using a powder thrower instead of weighing single charges.

I know throwing stick powders can give a spread of +-.2 or .3 and ball powders are tighter +-.1 or .2 so the question is in your experience is it more beneficial to throw a quality stick powder or tac/2520?

Gun is 20" criterion 1-8 twist chrome lined match 223 wylde barrel with rifle length gas. I've got 68 bthps, 69 sierras, 75 bthps, and 77 custom comps. Primarily using cci 400s if that makes a difference.

 

[joshb]

Throw the ball powders for volume plinking ammo. The trick is to use the same force with each throw. I do 2 trays, then seat bullets. When I start throwing again, I don’t use the first few loads. They go in my trickler. Check the next few for weight, then load the next 100.

 

[darkangel_r2]

Throw the ball powders for volume plinking ammo. The trick is to use the same force with each throw. I do 2 trays, then seat bullets. When I start throwing again, I don’t use the first few loads. They go in my trickler. Check the next few for weight, then load the next 100.

Whats your preferred powders for 68-77gn pills?

Have you tried throwing stick? If so how did that compare to ball?

 

[joshb]

Whats your preferred powders for 68-77gn pills?

Have you tried throwing stick? If so how did that compare to ball?

Like you found out. Throwing stick powders sucks. The accuracy isn’t there for volume. My main ball powder is H335. I like Bl-C2 also. I load below max so I don’t have to worry too much about temperature changes.
I use cheaper 53-55 grain bullets for plinkers. I usually throw and trickle Varget for the 77-80 grain bullets.
Add: My 80s are Bergers, so I save them for my bolt guns. I did have 5k of Sierra 69s I bought about 5 years ago. I recently did an inventory and I’m down under 1000, I guess I loaded them, too!
Given that, I’ve been treating my Sierra 77s like gold.

 

[Nick Caprinolo]

You don't mention the type of shooting you intend to do. If you are shooting for precision, you are going to have to weigh each load. One the other hand if you are content with one inch groups or more, you can throw stick powder with no problem. I use CFE223 for AR rifles. It is ball powder and it meters well. You should be able to drop loads within .01 grains and that is pretty accurate. With a deaseant rifle you should get 1/2 MOA and less. For bolt rifle I use SW 062 or Varget and I weigh each load.

People who shoot short range benchrest competition throw loads of VV133, which is a short stick powder and don't worry about 1 or 2 tenths of a grain. They tell me it won't make any difference at that distance. Following their example I bought a high end powder drop. While I could keep loads close to what I wanted, I never was able to attain the accuracy I wanted. I sold it and went back to weighing each load. My groups went back to being very small.

Like Josh said, you have to be very consistent in the way you operate the dropper. That take a lot of practice. The competition guys drop thousands of loads every year and their groups are almost always one hole, 1/4 or less at 100 yards. If they can't do that they should stay home.

 

[NZ_Fclass]

Back when I was shooting an AR, I used a Dillon 550b for doing the ammo. The Dillon measure was quite accurate enough - and I was using IMR8208, so may be even better with a ball powder.

 

[darkangel_r2]

You don't mention the type of shooting you intend to do. If you are shooting for precision, you are going to have to weigh each load. One the other hand if you are content with one inch groups or more, you can throw stick powder with no problem. I use CFE223 for AR rifles. It is ball powder and it meters well. You should be able to drop loads within .01 grains and that is pretty accurate. With a deaseant rifle you should get 1/2 MOA and less. For bolt rifle I use SW 062 or Varget and I weigh each load.

This ar is wearing a PA acss 4-14 223 drop compensation scope. I want the decent groups and most stable POI possible out to 600 while throwing charges. Because I'm going to load probably 3-400 of these at a time and shoot them in various conditions through the year POI stability is probably more important than raw accuracy. My range has IPSC torso targets every 100 yards out to 1200 yards. If I can cover half that with reliable ar15 fire with thrown charges that would be my goal. I can get TAC and 2520 to get 3/4" 5 shot groups but they seem to have an unstable POI and I know those powders are more temp sensitive than the two stick powders I have.

 

[darkangel_r2]

Back when I was shooting an AR, I used a Dillon 550b for doing the ammo. The Dillon measure was quite accurate enough - and I was using IMR8208, so may be even better with a ball powder.

I was thinking about small kernel temp stable stick powders. Is there some information on kernel size on here? A short scan of the search bar didn't turn up anything comprehensive.

 

[JB10]

I use h335 for 55gr and cfe223 for 75gr bthp. I set the powder thrower to what i want then go for it. I do check one about every 30 just to make sure im close. To me its an ar, im just having fun when i use them. I weigh every charge for bolt guns.

 

[darkangel_r2]

I use h335 for 55gr and cfe223 for 75gr bthp. I set the powder thrower to what i want then go for it. I do check one about every 30 just to make sure im close. To me its an ar, im just having fun when i use them. I weigh every charge for bolt guns.

H335 seems to work really well for light pills. Lots of varminters use it for vmax loads. That drop reticle works best with bullets from 68-77. My brother uses cfe223 for 55gn plinking ammo for hyper velocity but it just moves around too much with temp.

 

[karrarararararar]

My advice would be to do a ladder test with them. 2 rounds of each charge weight across the chronograph. Find a node and weigh some powder drops to see of you stay within the node. I believe I had good results at ~25.3 grains of SW Precision with 80's in my service rifle.

I do know there's a number of service rifle shooters to throw charges for 600 yard anmo with varget, R15, 8208, etc and get good results. You don't need super tight SD's for 600 yards

 

[sneakboxer]

I throw H4895 and RL-15 for my service rifle with the Dillon measure. 75hornady, 77 and 69SMK shoot as well as I can hold anyway. These thrown loads will clean a 2moa target at 300 with a fair number of X's . AR-comp is a popular service rifle powder too but I have never got a chance to try it. Find a wider node and don't try to throw powder at the ragged edge and I bet you will be surprised.
Good luck

 

[Rsadams]

Since I am loading for an AR I use ball powders like tac and always throw them.... As mentioned consistent is the way using a thrower. Everything the same , everytime....

 

[whatsupdoc]

@darkangel_r2 Do NOT use CCI 400 primers for any gas gun never, dont do it.

CCI 400's have thin cups and are not recommended for a AR type rifle due to the floating
firing pin. People have used them without issue but everything is good right up until it goes
bad.

For just playing around ammo I load 55 FMJ's over H335, it meters fantastic less than .1 grain and it gets out
to 400 yards to tickle steel plates no problem.

For more precision AR stuff I load 77 SMK's over IMR8208 and weigh each charge.

With 69gr bullets N133 works excellent and meters fairly well, my bolt action love that combo.

 

[RegionRat]

Some folks go High Master and Distinguished with thrown charge ammo, so lots of precedent for keeping them well inside the 10 rings. However...

Tends to be more folks will do better at the 600 line with single feed 80 grain loads that are more carefully assembled. This means you can and will see results change with carefully weighed ammo at 600, versus thrown charges. The issue is the margin you keep for your errors.

At some bases, I am forced to shoot factory ammo XTC even to the long line due to their insurance policy agreements. I have managed 199 at the long line in an EIC match doing this with Black Hills 77 TMK ammo (which is thrown) and won that match.

The detail of your question depends on what you can tolerate in terms of POI shifts. Club matches allow two boresighters, but EIC matches don't. Most EIC matches have an opportunity to shoot a club match ahead of the EIC match to help with local zeros, but even then the weather can shift overnight.

Getting to where ammo will be consistent in terms of location changes and temp swings, or batch to batch is a harder question to answer.

The ARComp is very good in terms of temp stability. I have no experience with the SW powders. The Varget you mentioned was a good choice too, but it sounds like your issue is opening the jug of ARComp, which should not be an issue when you balance a jug of powder against your shooting time and travel costs.

Things to consider include if those other powders are all one batch or if they will force more testing. My guess is a single jug of ARComp is better than having batch changes.

If it were me, I would take the load you like now and make 20 or 30 of them thrown, and the same trickled and go see what your particular process gives at 600. Ball powders do throw better, but not all of them keep up with Varget or RE-15 for example. They may come close enough for you, but only you can answer that.... YMMV

 

[wkdickinson]

I think it really comes down to what the discipline you are shooting requires. I know times and technology change, but back in the 90's I made NRA Master and threw every change in for my M70 308. However, today I no longer "throw" anything, I use an RCBS CM1500 and I am less than enthused about it's accuracy. But I no longer shoot A-T-C, I shot a game we have locally called G-class - same as F-class, but from a bench.

As I have written before, I used to think I could throw very consistent charges. I learned after doing some very exhaustive studies that I can't and frankly I doubt think anyone can - because I used every technique I could think of.

Unfortunately for me, rifle shooting is only interesting if you can hit very, very close to where you are aiming, Does that mean I don't enjoy shooting steel chickens at 200 yds. with my AR, not at all (which you can easily do with thrown charges). But I much prefer consistently banging the 3" gong at 600 yds., which you can't unless you weigh.

 

[Ned Ludd]

If you can get away with throwing charges dependent on the powder you decide to use, do it. At 600 yd, the wind will be a far larger source of error when using .224" bullets of 77 gr (or less) than minor charge weight variance.

 

[LCazador]

Lot's of good ideas. Start with a good powder measure/thrower. Harrells is good and if you can afford one a Jones is better. Get a good solid platform to throw from and take it out to the range and do a latter test. Get an idea to throw from with a few preloaded cartridges. Refine your seating depth first and then get out there and start throwing from there. Carefully prep your cases so they are all same case length and have the same bump. Take your cases to the range fully prepped and primed and don't forget wind flags. I'd test at 200-300 and do several up or down charges with both powders. I mounted a steel plate on the tail gate of my truck and mounted my powder measure to it. This is solid. The more shaking and vibration you have the less accurate your throws will be. I did this in my service rifle days and still do it in my benchrest days!

 

[Twdmar]

What powder thrower do you use? Some of them can be tuned up a bit.
R-15 can throw plenty accurate loads and even though 223 is not a huge case some variation in charge weight can be pretty neglible.
Finally, what kind of accuracy requirement do you have and does it realistically fit with your intent of throwing charges?
Check out shots 7 through 10 once I got it zeroed up. At 600 yds, n140 and a 77 matchking thrown at 24.0 gr. Grain size is similar to r15.
Ball powder meters better you'll be fine with r15

 

[MGYSGT]

If you are throwing powders for 200 or 300. Then do it. 500 and 600 you should measure.