Throwing changes not weighing?

[Karlandco]

Last time this was discussed I think it was quite a while ago. From what I can gather, it was quite common to throw charges for short range and more common to weigh for long. (If I'm wrong don't hesitate to correct me.) If it's true the charge isn't as important as other factors then why has it been common to load develop or "tune" at 100yrds. After all we are trying to test a powder weight as one component separately from "distance to lands" for example or "primer type".

I currently throw low and trickle up to weigh all charges and record them diligently. I consider this to be an important step in my process as powder burns by weight not volume. I use two models of RCBS and although they may not be a Harrels' I can't envision trusting a throw in my chamber without weighing every one...a lotta possibility for variation in charge weight there. What piece of this story am I missing?

 

[dgeesaman]

I think 1) loading at the range is very important to be competitive in SR BR and 2) many SR BR champions have won and continue to win using their high quality throws. They know they can hit a tune using their thrower. Outside of that I don’t think anyone prefers to throw powder for accurate rifle loads.

It’s been a long time argument if weight is the ideal metric for sizing a charge, but I think that’s gone away with long range loaders achieving single digit ESs using weight.

That said, the SRBR competitors I know load at the range using a digital scale / trickler. It takes them just a few seconds longer and they are much more accurate at dispensing a weight. They consider .1 grain accuracy to be ample and they do not chase to the kernel (if such a thing is really possible at the range)

 

[BartsBullets]

If you go to a Short Range match you’re going to see more RCBS chargemasters, V3s and V4s then you will Powder Throws.
They’re are still a few guys throwing powder but the majority have switched to some sort of electronic powder dispenser.

Below is a pic from the Tac Driver. You can see the V3s.

Bart

 

[Walt Krafft]

The size of the powder grains makes a big difference in the thrown weight. SRBR shooters are using small grain powder. It throws well. 4064 and 4831 are long grains and dont throw very accuratly.

 

[LHSmith]

In my region, the majority of SR Score competitors pre-load for the dominant 30 BR cartridge. There has been a slow transition from loading between relays which was common 20 years ago to pre-loading because those that did started winning consistently. This transition was aided by the legalization of and shooters learning how to use barrel tuners.
Preloading has helped me because it eliminated uncontrollable variables such as powder density changing during the several hours of a match duration. It also offered the opportunity to relax and monitor the conditions and their ebbs and flow patterns between relays. I use a Chargemaster to preload. My Redding BR-30 and Harrells are gathering dust.

 

[dusterdave173]

In my short time reloading --so I have very little experience compared to many --I have seen that when setting my Redding thrower--If I throw ten charges in the pan ( say 10x 25 gr total 250g)--then adjust, repeat, repeat until I get it as close as possible throwing ten at a time--then it is pretty darn good . If I try and get it dead on throwing one at a time--it is never as close as weighing ten at a time--sounds crazy but it works--That method which I read about in Glenn Z's book really smoothed out the process for me.
I have loaded varmint loads that way with good success. I still throw light and trickle up when I am really working for the best possible results.

 

[Karlandco]

Thanks guys for helping to clear this up for me. However, records and groups over the years don't seem to be that much improved as I would expect from throwing a charge vs weighing. I suppose at the heart of my question lies the following...does the charge accuracy matter less at short range benchrest than at long distance and if that is the case why isn't it recognized as leaving accuracy on the table if your only throwing at a match. I understand the need to tweak the load throughout the day but I still can't imagine making a reliable minute change to adjust for atmospherics with a throw....maybe I simply haven't used a quality throw before. When I shoot midrange F-Open I would consider an underweight or overweight charge of .1 - .4 to be a recipe for problems, even at 100 yrds. I can't say I've tested it as perhaps my seating depth and rifle equipment would hold up through the load. Have any of you? Thanks again for your responses.

 

[dgeesaman]

So in a nutshell, it sounds like you want to hear from serious SRBR competitors why they still throw powder, when for a few hundred bucks and a few more seconds they can use more accurate charges. That’s a fair request and I can’t provide it firsthand. But I have a few follow-up pieces that could help more.

I do know the SRBR guys I know value reliability, and dragging out cheap but sensitive scales that need wind shields and battery packs to work outdoors is not a trivial matter. If conditions are crap in the loading area, a guy with a thrower stands to have a better day.

ETA: Tony Boyer is a powder weighing guy. He mentions that some competitors can drop +/- 0.2 gr and that some powders and barrels are more sensitive to weight variance than others. He also mentions how small kernels of powder used in PPC drop more consistently. Perhaps the T322 of the old days was more tolerant than N133 today. Kind of apples and oranges, and it seems there are very few apples still dropping powder.

ETA2: a basic Chargemaster in field conditions is likely not much better than a thrower. A skilled thrower isn’t giving up much. That said, it seems the changeover is happening as the older guys who throw powder are replaced by younger guys who only know electronic charge dispensers.

 

[BartsBullets]

Thanks guys for helping to clear this up for me. However, records and groups over the years don't seem to be that much improved as I would expect from throwing a charge vs weighing. I suppose at the heart of my question lies the following...does the charge accuracy matter less at short range benchrest than at long distance and if that is the case why isn't it recognized as leaving accuracy on the table if your only throwing at a match. I understand the need to tweak the load throughout the day but I still can't imagine making a reliable minute change to adjust for atmospherics with a throw....maybe I simply haven't used a quality throw before. When I shoot midrange F-Open I would consider an underweight or overweight charge of .1 - .4 to be a recipe for problems, even at 100 yrds. I can't say I've tested it as perhaps my seating depth and rifle equipment would hold up through the load. Have any of you? Thanks again for your responses.

I’m talking Short Range Group and Benchrest with a big B! Every Single Top Shooter I know is using some type of electronic powder dispenser. Even the ones with a powder throw have a scale to check loads on.

Many things that are considered important in one discipline aren’t in the other. That’s one of the reasons long and short range shooters have such a hard time communicating with each other.

To your question.
Charge accuracy does matter less in short range as compared to mid or long range. I can shoot tiny groups at 100 and 200 yards with horrible Extreme Spreads (30 FPS or more). The vertical that you would see at mid or long range with those kind of numbers just doesn’t show up at short range.

As far as records. You don’t see short range records dropping because they are already damn small. Usually records get broken in extremely light conditions which don’t come around that often. On top of that you’ll need a shooter that has equipment capable of breaking the record and capable of MAINTAINING a record breaking Tune through out the day.

But thinking records should theoretically shrink because of weighing powder down to .02 is barking up the wrong tree in Short range.

Bart

 

[BoydAllen]

So in a nutshell, it sounds like you want to hear from serious SRBR competitors why they still throw powder, when for a few hundred bucks and a few more seconds they can use more accurate charges. That’s a fair request and I can’t provide it firsthand. But I have a few follow-up pieces that could help more.

I do know the SRBR guys I know value reliability, and dragging out cheap but sensitive scales that need wind shields and battery packs to work outdoors is not a trivial matter. If conditions are crap in the loading area, a guy with a thrower stands to have a better day.

ETA: Tony Boyer is a powder weighing guy. He mentions that some competitors can drop +/- 0.2 gr and that some powders and barrels are more sensitive to weight variance than others. He also mentions how small kernels of powder used in PPC drop more consistently. Perhaps the T322 of the old days was more tolerant than N133 today. Kind of apples and oranges, and it seems there are very few apples still dropping powder.

ETA2: a basic Chargemaster in field conditions is likely not much better than a thrower. A skilled thrower isn’t giving up much. That said, it seems the changeover is happening as the older guys who throw powder are replaced by younger guys who only know electronic charge dispensers.

Throw 20 charges in a row, and weigh them on a reliable electronic scale that reads to hundredths of a grain, and then do the same with a Chargemaster. Typically, the ES of weights will be half the size or less.

 

[Karlandco]

Many things that are considered important in one discipline aren’t in the other. That’s one of the reasons long and short range shooters have such a hard time communicating with each other.

To your question.
Charge accuracy does matter less in short range as compared to mid or long range. I can shoot tiny groups at 100 and 200 yards with horrible Extreme Spreads (30 FPS or more). The vertical that you would see at mid or long range with those kind of numbers just doesn’t show up at short range.

As far as records. You don’t see short range records dropping because they are already damn small. Usually records get broken in extremely light conditions which don’t come around that often. On top of that you’ll need a shooter that has equipment capable of breaking the record and capable of MAINTAINING a record breaking Tune through out the day.

But thinking records should theoretically shrink because of weighing powder down to .02 is barking up the wrong tree in Short range.

Bart

Very interesting thanks for your comment.

 

[Karlandco]

So in a nutshell, it sounds like you want to hear from serious SRBR competitors why they still throw powder, when for a few hundred bucks and a few more seconds they can use more accurate charges. That’s a fair request and I can’t provide it firsthand. But I have a few follow-up pieces that could help more.

I do know the SRBR guys I know value reliability, and dragging out cheap but sensitive scales that need wind shields and battery packs to work outdoors is not a trivial matter. If conditions are crap in the loading area, a guy with a thrower stands to have a better day.

ETA: Tony Boyer is a powder weighing guy. He mentions that some competitors can drop +/- 0.2 gr and that some powders and barrels are more sensitive to weight variance than others. He also mentions how small kernels of powder used in PPC drop more consistently. Perhaps the T322 of the old days was more tolerant than N133 today. Kind of apples and oranges, and it seems there are very few apples still dropping powder.

ETA2: a basic Chargemaster in field conditions is likely not much better than a thrower. A skilled thrower isn’t giving up much. That said, it seems the changeover is happening as the older guys who throw powder are replaced by younger guys who only know electronic charge dispensers.

So in a nutshell, it sounds like you want to hear from serious SRBR competitors why they still throw powder, when for a few hundred bucks and a few more seconds they can use more accurate charges. That’s a fair request and I can’t provide it firsthand. But I have a few follow-up pieces that could help more.

I do know the SRBR guys I know value reliability, and dragging out cheap but sensitive scales that need wind shields and battery packs to work outdoors is not a trivial matter. If conditions are crap in the loading area, a guy with a thrower stands to have a better day.

ETA: Tony Boyer is a powder weighing guy. He mentions that some competitors can drop +/- 0.2 gr and that some powders and barrels are more sensitive to weight variance than others. He also mentions how small kernels of powder used in PPC drop more consistently. Perhaps the T322 of the old days was more tolerant than N133 today. Kind of apples and oranges, and it seems there are very few apples still dropping powder.

ETA2: a basic Chargemaster in field conditions is likely not much better than a thrower. A skilled thrower isn’t giving up much. That said, it seems the changeover is happening as the older guys who throw powder are replaced by younger guys who only know electronic charge dispensers.

What you said all makes sense...I would imagine weighing a charge in wind is akin to shooting in wind. Smaller granules of powder for smaller cartridges equals more accurate throws over stick powder. So largely it's a time/practicality thing to do and some accuracy may improve but the reward downrange isn't there for the effort.

If I may ask:. From what little I know, the BR community favors flat base over boat tail. At what distance would you and your experience draw the line between the two?

 

[BartsBullets]

What you said all makes sense...I would imagine weighing a charge in wind is akin to shooting in wind. Smaller granules of powder for smaller cartridges equals more accurate throws over stick powder. So largely it's a time/practicality thing to do and some accuracy may improve but the reward downrange isn't there for the effort.

If I may ask:. From what little I know, the BR community favors flat base over boat tail. At what distance would you and your experience draw the line between the two?

The vast majority are shooting boattails.

Bart

 

[Karlandco]

The vast majority are shooting boattails.

Bart

Wow, I guess I need to visit a BR comp to get a better idea of what's been working.

 

[BartsBullets]

Wow, I guess I need to visit a BR comp to get a better idea of what's been working.

Absolutely! Come shoot one with us!

 

[Karlandco]

Absolutely! Come shoot one with us!

I would give my non supporting arm to shoot with you and some of the professionals on here. Unfortunately, I live in the East and I must be very creative and resourceful to shoot and comps are often 5 or more hours away. It doesn't hold me back yet but as I get more involved it becomes more difficult. How far North East do you go? If I go further than Ohio or PA I begin to think about wings instead of wheels.

 

[jackieschmidt]

Going to a Short Range Match will certainly clear up a lot of the mystery concerning how we do things, and most of all, why we do things.

Bart is correct about records. I have been at Matches, even National Events, where the conditions were so light that competitors were shooting “teen Aggs” clear into the 25th place. Two days later, the bad stuff blew in and you could win an Agg with a “mid Two”.

once you get down past that magic ”sub .200” agging range, all of the planets have to be lined up in order to see huge improvements. Occasionally, a good shooter will score a phenomenal barrel, some great bullets. He‘s the guy that will suddenly shoot an Agg that has all of the rest of us shaking our heads.

I have been involved in this game for close to 30 years, and to this day, the most phenomenal job of combining a great shooter with championship caliber opponents was Dave Coots shooting Unlimited at the NBRSA Nationals several years ago. The conditions were far from ideal. Dave had a combination working so well that the vast majority of us were simply relegated to spectator status. Keep in mind, this was shooting eight 10 shot groups to complete each yardage Agg. I do not know how many “ones” he shot in that Agg, but it considering the conditions, it wa omething to witness.

Maybe Dave will chime in and say if he was throwing charges, weighing charges on a little pocket scale, using a ChargeMaster, or perhaps something much higher on the food chain.

In Benchrest, we tend to get hooked on the “latest and greatest” gizmo. It is a lot like back years ago in the Hot Rod scene where every little trinket advertised on Hot Rod or Car Craft magazines would “add 15 Hp”. If you fell for every one, sooner or later you would have your lowly 283 small block making 800 HP.

It seems like every month someone come out with something better. And how do you know it is better?

Heck, that’s easy. Just read their advertisements.

I find that the CAD/CNC revolution has produced untold numbers of equipment vendors. Some geared toward the actual rifle, some toward the ammunition, some toward bench equipment, etc.
Many of the new products simply present a different way to arrive at the same destination.

One good example is reloading dies. If you think about it, a die set has a specific function. First is to size your brass properly. The next is to seat the bullets with as close to zero runout as possible. The third is to insure that the each bullet is seated To an exact dimension, one after another. These are things that can be easily checked.

Regardless of whether you are using some “antiquated“ pieces that have people scratching their heads, or the latest offering by the new kid on the block, the great equalizer is still the target.

 

[BartsBullets]

You

I would give my non supporting arm to shoot with you and some of the professionals on here. Unfortunately, I live in the East and I must be very creative and resourceful to shoot and comps are often 5 or more hours away. It doesn't hold me back yet but as I get more involved it becomes more difficult. How far North East do you go? If I go further than Ohio or PA I begin to think about wings instead of wheels.

I make it to Fairchance PA most years.

 

[Karlandco]

You

I make it to Fairchance PA most years.

That's 5hrs from me. I'll find when the next match date occurs and if you find it worth your time to compete there or another time I will schedule schedule it on my end. Just be prepared to have a newbie following you around. Thanks again

 

[Karlandco]

Going to a Short Range Match will certainly clear up a lot of the mystery concerning how we do things, and most of all, why we do things.

Bart is correct about records. I have been at Matches, even National Events, where the conditions were so light that competitors were shooting “teen Aggs” clear into the 25th place. Two days later, the bad stuff blew in and you could win an Agg with a “mid Two”.

once you get down past that magic ”sub .200” agging range, all of the planets have to be lined up in order to see huge improvements. Occasionally, a good shooter will score a phenomenal barrel, some great bullets. He‘s the guy that will suddenly shoot an Agg that has all of the rest of us shaking our heads.

I have been involved in this game for close to 30 years, and to this day, the most phenomenal job of combining a great shooter with championship caliber opponents was Dave Coots shooting Unlimited at the NBRSA Nationals several years ago. The conditions were far from ideal. Dave had a combination working so well that the vast majority of us were simply relegated to spectator status. Keep in mind, this was shooting eight 10 shot groups to complete each yardage Agg. I do not know how many “ones” he shot in that Agg, but it considering the conditions, it wa omething to witness.

Maybe Dave will chime in and say if he was throwing charges, weighing charges on a little pocket scale, using a ChargeMaster, or perhaps something much higher on the food chain.

In Benchrest, we tend to get hooked on the “latest and greatest” gizmo. It is a lot like back years ago in the Hot Rod scene where every little trinket advertised on Hot Rod or Car Craft magazines would “add 15 Hp”. If you fell for every one, sooner or later you would have your lowly 283 small block making 800 HP.

It seems like every month someone come out with something better. And how do you know it is better?

Heck, that’s easy. Just read their advertisements.

I find that the CAD/CNC revolution has produced untold numbers of equipment vendors. Some geared toward the actual rifle, some toward the ammunition, some toward bench equipment, etc.
Many of the new products simply present a different way to arrive at the same destination.

One good example is reloading dies. If you think about it, a die set has a specific function. First is to size your brass properly. The next is to seat the bullets with as close to zero runout as possible. The third is to insure that the each bullet is seated To an exact dimension, one after another. These are things that can be easily checked.

Regardless of whether you are using some “antiquated“ pieces that have people scratching their heads, or the latest offering by the new kid on the block, the great equalizer is still the target.

Cnc equipment has certainly impacted our equipment capabilities. That's a great observation and I agree not necessary to recreate quality ammo. I suppose I must first determine what changes are required in order to then decide on a course of action. This is a question I recently asked another shooter that lies at heart of what we're talking about:. I may ask, when you arrive at a short range BR comp; I assume you have a load tuned for your 6 Dasher, BR, Bra..whatever, that shoots well on your home range, say in the 1's and 2's. I also assume the match gives you some time to shoot that load/foul barrel and/or sight in. During this process you find your zero may need to change and the load is holding in the 4's. So a change is in order to be competitive. My question is: what conditions both ballistically and environmentally cause you to change plus or minus powder and how much? Is seating depth ever increased or decreased during a match? I've found my CBTO tune is a .005 window for that given powder charge. This seems to, of course, grow the lands every 100 rnds or less depending on cartridge/ load. So first I may try an added length of .oo4 to bring it back into tune. Try 2 shots and if it shoots 1's again...adjust zero. If it still shoots bad or worse then what? If it's colder add .1 gr or it's warmer drop .1gr? These are just a few questions that blow my brain when it comes to BR.