Throw or Measure????

[xswanted]

A question popped up in the "1/2 minute rifle" thread that I didn't want to hijack to here's a new conversation.......


My Dad is an old BR guy. Lots of 100-300 stuff quite a few years ago. Loaded his ammo right at the shoot, won a pile of the in Southern MN and is still a damn good shot. He threw his charges at those shoots, and still do this day throws powder charges. We have two VERY good powder measures. I've gotten into the same habit of throwing.

My Dasher will hold, most shoots, a 1/2 minute of elevation at 600 yards...normally. I've had plenty of fliers like others.....but average it all out and the thing hangs in there vertically very well. I throw the charges for it. At 800 its had some good veritcal measurements, but its not as consistent.

22BR seems to be quite consistent so far at long range, but have had a few vertical misses with that one as well.

I throw the charges.

You guys that are decorated long range guys......do you weigh and measure each charge? Or is neck tension, and other brass prep the more important step....or is it all equally important at achieving the smallest groups. I've always been told a couple tenths of powder up or down is pretty hard for the majority of shooters to notice.

discuss.

 

[maxpower]

While I am not a "decorated" long range shooter, I have competed in lots of F Class and 600/1000yd BR competitions and I can tell you now that at least 99% of the shooters weigh each and every charge. The needs of a 100/200yd BR shooter are much different to a long range shooter. For 600yds and up I would never use thrown loads as getting a low ES/SD is more helpful the further out you go.

 

[johara1]

+1 if you don't weigh each charge all it will do is, cost you money and make noise.... jim

 

[TonyR]

From what I've seen, throwing 20 charges for a long range match might see a range of a much as a grain using a stick powder like H4350 which is commonly used by F-Class shooters. I do the "throw and trickle" method that has been described in other threads to get my charges exact. Half a grain variations can throw a rifle completely out of tune. I am told that spherical powders meter more precisely.

 

[jhord]

Another vote for throw and trickle. It doesn't take that long to do, especially with an electric trickler. (can't think of the brand of mine, the one with the little yellow hopper and push button controller) So much of it depends on the powder and how it gets along with your measure. Stick powders can easily vary .2gr from my Hornady measure. Powders like Benchmark or 8208 are much better, but you will still get that odd .1gr throw. I'm confident enough using CFE223 for High Power matches to not weigh any charges except for the 600 yard loads, it throws perfectly. For my bolt guns I weigh every charge. You can also throw, weigh, and accept or reject. Sometimes this is faster than trickling.

I think at 600+ yards you will probably see better vertical, but the only way to find out is to test.

 

[Erik Cortina]

I weight down to the kernel on every round. If you throw powder you will throw fliers.

 

[TonyR]

I weight down to the kernel on every round. If you throw powder you will throw fliers.

+1. I find that throwing with a Redding BR Measure then trickling with an Omega is actually faster than throwing with a ChargeMaster then trickling. But I also try to get within a kernel with every charge for 600+.

 

[dkhunt14]

Throw and trickle. At long range (600 plus) enough other factors come in to play. You don't need the powder charge to be one of them. I weigh to 1/100 of a grain.

 

[savageshooter86]

I weigh every charge to the single kernel. I have an RCBS uniflow thrower and using Varget you can forget about it being consistent. I actually tested this the other day using mine just to see how bad it was. 24 thrown charges of Varget and the RCBS Uniflow. Weighed on my GP 250 scale

24 charges measured
ES-0.6 gr
SD-0.15 gr

With the measure I go up and tap handle 2 times at top then lower to drop the powder. Just feel it cutting and catching the long kernels of Varget. If it feels way different, I put it back in hopper and throw another charge for that case.

So I throw and weigh to the single kernel using GP250 and Omega speed trickler

 

[Jeff Von Rosenberg]

Don't know if it's been addressed or not. I shot benchrest for a number of years and throwing powder at the range served me just fine. Now I shoot long range(1000yds) and I can't say the same holds true. Beleuve it or not it requires more precision than the 100-200 yd shooting. The main diff in weighing as opposed to throwing is normally the small capacity BR cases tend to use small partical powder Ball or flake or very small stick, which meters very well in a powder measure. The larger slower powders which are becoming more In" vogue" now do not meter well in a throw type measure . Most weigh and trickle with scales such as a Sartouius GD 503 etc. some of us "crazy" guys have stepped up to a Prometheus II !! Hope I haven't made a short story long! JVON

 

[VaniB]

I use a powder measure for my Marlin lever action rifles...... and only when I'm in the mood for casual plinking.

As with most everything a precision shooter will do when constructing the perfect cartridge in his bolt action rifle to deliver a top score, why would I want to leave anything at all to chance, including how you charge your case ?

 

[BoydAllen]

Short range, easy to measure powders, careful technique....throw
Longer ranges and/or harder to measure powders, throw and trickle

 

[thumper4fun]

I use a $20 Lee powder measure to throw my charges under my target load and trickle up with an Omega trickler and weigh my loads on a GemPro 250.

Simple, fast, accurate and didn't break the bank.

 

[6BRinNZ]

A question popped up in the "1/2 minute rifle" thread that I didn't want to hijack to here's a new conversation.......


My Dad is an old BR guy. Lots of 100-300 stuff quite a few years ago. Loaded his ammo right at the shoot, won a pile of the in Southern MN and is still a damn good shot. He threw his charges at those shoots, and still do this day throws powder charges. We have two VERY good powder measures. I've gotten into the same habit of throwing.

My Dasher will hold, most shoots, a 1/2 minute of elevation at 600 yards...normally. I've had plenty of fliers like others.....but average it all out and the thing hangs in there vertically very well. I throw the charges for it. At 800 its had some good veritcal measurements, but its not as consistent.

22BR seems to be quite consistent so far at long range, but have had a few vertical misses with that one as well.

I throw the charges.

You guys that are decorated long range guys......do you weigh and measure each charge? Or is neck tension, and other brass prep the more important step....or is it all equally important at achieving the smallest groups. I've always been told a couple tenths of powder up or down is pretty hard for the majority of shooters to notice.

discuss.

This may have been true at some point but with modern equipment, tolerances and tools to measure it all you can definitely explain flyers back to powder charge. The other thing to keep in mind is that statements like that are relative - a couple of 1/10ths here and there is a larger percentage change for a 6br compared to a .284 and I would suggest they weren't trying to keep within .5 moa vertical at 1000 across multiple relays.

 

[BoydAllen]

One more data point: Last weekend, a fellow won both two guns at a two day 1-200 yard unlimited match with thrown charges, including one 100 yard aggregate that was a range record, and near to a national record, which he owns more than one of, all shot with thrown charges. There were Chargemasters at the match. Long range and short range are different.

 

[johara1]

800 yds....... jim

 

[6BRinNZ]

One more data point: Last weekend, a fellow won both two guns at a two day 1-200 yard unlimited match with thrown charges, including one 100 yard aggregate that was a range record, and near to a national record, which he owns more than one of, all shot with thrown charges. There were Chargemasters at the match. Long range and short range are different.

Boyd - do you think if his thrown charges were weighed they would be quite accurate...not to the granule..but not +- 2/10ths either? IMO its all about consistency - Short range BR guys seem to put a lot of effort into getting thrown charge consistency using a process that can be used to tune a load on the day.

 

[BoydAllen]

If one is throwing 133 staying inside of +-.1 takes concentration and a lot of work exploring technique with a very good scale. He was not shooting 133 so I believe that it is entirely possible that his charges are +-.1, or better. IMO having spent more time on measure technique than any one that I know, typical discussions about how to best throw powder are at a pretty unsophisticated level. Different powders, same measure, different techniques...Different measures same powder, different techniques....and then there are the whole bottle/reservoir, baffle, fill level, and solidness of mounting issues.

 

[thumper4fun]

If one is throwing 133 staying inside of +-.1 takes concentration and a lot of work exploring technique with a very good scale. He was not shooting 133 so I believe that it is entirely possible that his charges are +-.1, or better. IMO having spent more time on measure technique than any one that I know, typical discussions about how to best throw powder are at a pretty unsophisticated level. Different powders, same measure, different techniques...Different measures same powder, different techniques....and then there are the whole bottle/reservoir, baffle, fill level, and solidness of mounting issues.

I never could master the powder thrower and that's why I weigh. I had rather practice my shooting than practice my powder throwing. No disrespect to those that prefer throwing powder, it's just not in my wheelhouse.

 

[johara1]

Boyd, If you want to be win and be consistent at 1000Yds best weigh to the .01, .1 won't get it. Short range is one tenth as far......jim