Three lug actions ?

[Hammer]

BAT, and I suppose others, offer three lug and two lug actions.

The shorter lift of the three lug action might keep some knuckles from getting scratched on the scope.

Any evidence that a three lug action might not be as good for a competition rifle as a two lug action ?

 

[Tim Singleton]

I have a Bat 3 lug setup for short range group.
It is my backup gun. The bolt lift is a little heavier than a two lug. When your running a group it's easy to get on it to hard and upset the gun in the bags

 

[Tim Singleton]

I'm sure the type of competion it is used in will make a difference on the opinions you get

 

[357Mag]

Hammer

Howdy !

FWIW - Once read a BR rimfire guru's comments that a 3-lug might help w/ a more consistent interface of trigger to sear. He offered ( rimfire ) tests results to back that up.

My Wichita WBR1375 is a 3-lug. Works great, for me !


With regards,
357Mag

 

[Down South]

In F-Class a lot of shooters use Barnard actions and they're 3 lug if I remember correctly. Everyone that I talk to that uses them loves em.

 

[lawrence97]

I shoot Fclass and at one time had 3 Barnards. They are built like tanks, very simple design, easy bolt removal and bolt lift isn't hard at all. The bolt is also very easy to disassemble and they handle high pressure very well. The only thing I wish I could have on my Barnards was a Bix n Andy trigger!

They are not flashy like some other actions but they are definitely very versatile and there are several ways to bed them with different lug placement options.

Depending on type of competition and weight requirements, the Barnard might be on the heavier side.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

The Bat 3 lug is a nice action, bolt lift is heavy. You wont see an accuracy difference between either.

 

[LCazador]

The Bat 3 lug is a nice action, bolt lift is heavy. You wont see an accuracy difference between either.

There as many guys that will tell you a 3 lug is more accurate as well as there are that say there is no difference. It's a personal preference and the way you shoot. As some one said here before, if you're a runner, it can do better if you don't upset it in the bags.

 

[6BRinNZ]

I have a Panda F-class and a Barnard P. In terms of perception the Banard P feels lighter to open and smoother. I haven't actually measured the force required to tell if it is more than perception....mostly because I don't care - they both hammer are rock solid and I can't tell a difference on target (F-Class)

 

[BoydAllen]

First of all, you need to know the theory that is behind the existence of actions with more than two lugs. Back in the day a prominent shooter and gunsmith by the name of Creighton Audette did some testing that revealed that with heavily sized .308 brass that there was an advantage in having lug contact over a greater percentage of the perimeter of the bolt face. The whys get too lengthy for a forum post. Suffice it to say that his test results were convincing.

Different types of competition involve different rules and conditions that can make a considerable difference in what is important, what has an advantage, and what does not. For instance, if one is not shooting from a rest, or is not in a situation where rapid fire is not a consideration, bolt lift may not be an issue. On the other hand, if one is shooting from a front rest, and the rifle rocking is an issue, it may be.

As far as the issue of lift in short range benchrest is concerned, I believe that Tony Boyer has shot a BAT 3 lug quite a bit, and places his thumb on the action as he is opening the bolt so that he is not picking up or rotating the rifle excessively as he opens the bolt. Since he could choose any action, perhaps he believes that there is some advantage that made developing this technique worth the effort, but of course you would have to ask him about that.

 

[Liven The Dream]

I have Bernard's very smooth easy to lift 3 Lugs and the triggers are wonderful .
They don't break parts ! For the Price with the Trigger they are a deal.
best of luck !

 

[fastarget]

I have Bernard's very smooth easy to lift 3 Lugs and the triggers are wonderful .
They don't break parts ! For the Price with the Trigger they are a deal.
best of luck !

We have Barnards and looking for one more. Like Lawrence said, they are not flashy, they are purpose build, well engineered, easy to maintain and just work. Nothing wrong with other designs or two lugs for that matter, for a working rifle can't beat 3 lugs.

 

[Pumba]

I shoot a 4 lug action from Truvelo and I have no complaints other than uneven seating force on bullets that can cause fliers

 

[dcali]

I think it's safe to say you need to be shooting BR before you can even begin to discuss whether or not two or three lugs is more accurate. And even then, you're going to have a debate and a lot of caveats to throw around. There are bigger things to worry about.

Also, +1 on the Barnard. Wonderful actions - just like everyone said. Only two complaints - one, the ejection port could stand to be another 40-50 thous longer so you can eject unfired super-long .308 rounds, and the knob that holds the firing pin in place tends to back off if you don't really crank it down. They're also heavy, I suppose.

 

[jr600yd]

I shoot a Gilkes/Ross 3 lug and a Remmy 40X 2 lug. Is one action more accurate than the other? Beats me!

 

[Laurie]

First of all, you need to know the theory that is behind the existence of actions with more than two lugs. Back in the day a prominent shooter and gunsmith by the name of Creighton Audette did some testing that revealed that with heavily sized .308 brass that there was an advantage in having lug contact over a greater percentage of the perimeter of the bolt face. The whys get too lengthy for a forum post. Suffice it to say that his test results were convincing.

The 4-lug Swing / Paramount / RPA action goes back to its use in British Commonwealth / European 'Target Rifle' competition where the use of match supplied 7.62 military spec ammunition was compulsory, with considerable variations occurring in inherent component quality and consistency. With many case heads slightly 'out of true', the four lug form was found to give markedly superior results compared to comparable modern match quality two-lug designs such as the South African Musgrave, a modernized Mauser-system design. The same benefits apparently come from the three lug jobs. I assume the multi-lug / angled lug systems coped better too with the 'banana case' syndrome that Audette investigated at length where the main case-body wall thickness variations exceed his finding of a key maximum 0.003" figure.

Robert Chombart who was closely involved in the RPA history and development and other modern actions for 'fullbore' rifle shooting has written at great length on this some of the work available on other online forums. IIRC, the pointer to how these lug positions work goes back to the French MAS36 military action which has the lugs at the 1 and 7 o'clock positions when locked which was found to cope with case quality variations much better than conventional 6 and 12 o'clock two-lug actions. The 4-luggers have noticeably heavy bolt lift and are IMO very 'notchy' in use. OK for single-shot prone shooting especially sling shooting with the operator remounting the rifle in the shoulder before each shot, not at all ideal for BR.

Obviously, any such benefits are of far less importance and value to people shooting handloaded fireformed cartridges whose brass is manufactured to very high standards and is further refined through batching and preparation. When F-Class got going seriously here, followed by the later introduction of FTR, a lot of homegrown 4-luggers were used largely because they were already there in circulation as well as a known successful design. There are still a few in use today at GB national level / international shooting, but nothing like as many. The Barnard has always been popular here in both 'P' form, (and for FTR, the slimmer lighter 'S' variant), are very slick in use and work extremely well. As an owner of a couple of 'P's I'd agree with all the praise given in previous posts. But then again, our F-Class / FTR lists are nowadays full of people shooting modern high-quality two-lug actions from several makers including an increasing number of homegrown GB suppliers and there is no action type related pattern at all as to who shoots highest scores. If there is a lug number related difference in potential precision for this type of shooting, it is so minuscule that it gets lost amongst other factors and as always takes second place to who reads the wind best once certain levels of long-range precision and external ballistics are achieved.

 

[ryanjay11]

Also, +1 on the Barnard. Wonderful actions - just like everyone said. Only two complaints - one, the ejection port could stand to be another 40-50 thous longer so you can eject unfired super-long .308 rounds

It takes about 30 seconds to move your bolt stop back and increase the ability to eject a .4"(yep, 4/10ths of an inch) longer round.

 

[dcali]

It takes about 30 seconds to move your bolt stop back and increase the ability to eject a .4"(yep, 4/10ths of an inch) longer round.

Thank you! I had totally forgotten about that feature, and yes, mine is currently in the forward position.