Thoughts on a spotting scopes

[MVW]

Gents: (I guess I should have posted this on the main board)

I have an inexpensive Konus spotting scope that I use for bullseye shooting and it works great. However, it is not so great at the rifle range. My rifle scope is much better than the spotting scope for everything.

I am looking to upgrade my spotting scope this winter. I am not looking for a scope to see bullet holes at 600 yards (I have seen the reviews on that), but I would like something that gives better definition to the mirage. From the scopes I have seen at the range, the better the scope the better the mirage shows up.

The KOWA 883 looks awesome and the reviews are uniformly great, but if I don't need to spend $3K I'd be fine with that, so I was looking at the 82SV as an option. That said, I don't want to spend $1K to find out later that I should have saved for the better scope. Any thoughts on this. I know there many scopes out there and everyone has a favorite. I am just looking for a scope that does the job (rifle shooting, not bird watching) and I won't be sorry about later .

One other question, on the eyepiece, does anyone know if the zoom has sufficient eye relief to allow looking through it with glasses on? My cheapo one does not. I have looked through the 25X eyepiece on other scopes and the eye relief seems fine.

Thanks for your suggestions,

Mike

 

[natdscott]

In fixed-distance competitive shooting, most of our scope use is for observing mirage, not for seeing exactly where on the target our shots are impacting. In fact, a lot of F-Class riflescopes have enough magnification to spot shots themselves.

Anyhow, what I'm getting to is that you are largely wasting anything above 25x on a highpower range. As you increase power, field of view decreases. With decreasing field of view comes a decreased awareness of what the wind is doing...you don't have as much ability to see what's coming your way.

You also can't scope as many neighbor's targets up and downwind of you to see what the conditions are like before you fire.

Example: Moderate to Stiff wind at 10:00, no flags, cloudy, 800 yards...what do you do? One GOOD answer is to wait a bit and watch the first 1-3 shots on the targets around you. If they all end up on the right side of the bull, then chances are, the conditions are worth more than you (and they) think.

Most elite highpower shooters are using spotting scopes with magnification at 18x-25x, and don't worry with any more. Less, and it can become hard to determine location of holes at long range. More, and mirage becomes so dense that you can't see holes, and your FOV is so small that you don't get a good sense of wind on the WHOLE range...just the little tunnel you're lookin' at right then.

now then, scope:

You want and NEED a 45-degree angle scope body. Period.

I recommend either the Celestron Regal F-ED scopes, or the Pentax PF ED. Both offer good durability and waterproofing, ED glass, fine adjust focus, rotating mount band, et cetera...but the biggest thing they offer is their American standard 1.25" eyepiece mounting sockets.

This is huge, because it allows you to purchase any standard 1.25" astronomical eyepiece, either fixed, or zoom, and plug it right in for a completely different scope performance from the one you had in before. Eyepiece do not receive as much credit as they ought to, because they can make or break the image faster than just about anything else.

Scopes like the Kowa, Zeiss, Leica ("The Big Three") use PROPRIETARY bayonet mounts for their scopes, so that only their eyepieces will fit. This way, they sell more shtuff, see?

Lower end scopes have fixed eyepieces that cannot be changes for anything else, and are generally not high quality anyhow. Trust me, I've been there and done that...no good for serious work.

Their are literally hundreds of eyepiece available. MOST are not waterproof, and this is a feature you MUST have on a highpower range.

The Pentax XW series 1.25" astronomical eyepieces and are recognized around the world as some of the absolute best available. Just trundle over to any birding or astronomy forum and see. They are a far better EP than most of the proprietary ones available for The Big Three's scopes. Among other good features, keys are: waterproof, offer 70-degree field of view (excellent), and fixed 20mm eye relief (excellent) for easy use with shooting glasses.

Put one of these suckers in a Celestron or Pentax ED-glass scope, and prepare to be amazed. For cross-course shooting, I use a Celestron Regal 65 paired with the Pentax XW 20 eyepiece.


To determine end magnification of your scope with an eyepiece:

Focal length of scope / Focal length of eyepiece = Magnification in powers.
Example: Celestron Regal ED 65 = 386mm Focal Length
Pentax XW 20 = 20mm Focal Length

386mm/20mm = 19.3x Magnification

The Vixen Geoma-II scopes accept 1.25" EP and have received good reviews as well.

Don't take any of this to mean that I think the Big Three's offerings are not excellent. I do. I just think that for the performance, they cost quite a darn pile of bills for something that I don't even use to aim my rifle.

-Nate

 

[Hammer47]

Best bang for the buck is the Theron Saker 15/45 ED sub $300 available from Predator optics. I have one I use in conjunction with my Kowa TSN82 and the pair does all I could ask. The Saker is more versitile and my favorite for long range bullet holes but the 25X wide angle on the Kowa is the best for long time viewing...........like at the beach............2 legged deer.........you get the idea. I am just old, not dead. :

 

[NateHaler]

Gents: (I guess I should have posted this on the main board)

I have an inexpensive Konus spotting scope that I use for bullseye shooting and it works great. However, it is not so great at the rifle range. My rifle scope is much better than the spotting scope for everything.

There's your answer. Use your rifle scope, forget the spotting scope for rifle shooting. Unless you're spotting in a match, like a prone match (F-Class, Palma), your rifle scope will be MUCH handier and better.

 

[FroggyOne2]

Nate,

What if he wants to shoot irons?

 

[MVW]

Exactly - I want to shoot iron's. I should of thought of that...

Actually, the challenge I have is trying to see mirage in the near field. I can obviously bring my scope in close, but at two of the ranges I shoot at, the near field is below the line of the targets, so I have to move the gun and then focus in to see the near field - then back out to the the target. Makes for a lot of work in a short time period. A spotting scope seems like one possibe option, but open to other suggestions.

Mike

 

[natdscott]

What if he wants to shoot irons?

Valid point, and one that does not easily escape this particular DR.

I would still suggest more be spent to start with on a good sighting system for the rifle. Warner or Phoenix rear sight, with a Gehmann, Anschutz, or Centra aperture and rain shade. Add a Rightsight or Riles, with all the tricks, maybe a couple extra custom lenses and you're all the way past the $1,000 budget for the scope.

If you're a service gunner, then you probably aren't holding much under 1.25 MOA on the lines, and you really do need all the advantages you can get (to include expensive scopes) to run with the cheater-rifle guys. Ask me why I know.

-Nate

 

[Rtheurer]

Mike
Another option is to look for a used Kowa, Leica, Swaro, or Pentax. Lot of these high end optics seem to get sold first out of the average joes closet. Many.. in brand new condition, saving sevarl hundred dollars in the process.
I think Nate Scott gave you some excellent advice on the Celestron and Pentax. Your going to have to have SOMETHING and spending a little more on such a product will be worth it in the end. This time of year is a good time to watch for discounts and sales as well.
Another option I think is important on spotting scope for prone shooting is that the mounting point on the body rotates. Getting that scope up close to your none firing hand so you can look through it without alot of wiggleing around is important and that option helps youdo that.

Check out Ebay maybe.
RT

 

[MVW]

Thanks for all the fine input. Based on the suggests offerred here and articles found elsewhere on this site, I'll likely keep my eye out for a good deal on the Pentax - unless I find a giveaway somewhere.

Mike

 

[RDavies]

For those of you who use a spotting scope to check mirage when shooting F class, do you prefer a straight or angled eye piece?

 

[treeman]

everybody has their own preferences, but I think that with a straight scope you are not haveing to change the angle of your vision and in a 20-shot string makes for less fatige. the night force that I use in f-class shows mirage better than my kowa but not as good when focused on the target. on some days mirage just doesn't show up as well and flags, grass and trees indicate wind better. I also beleive that with a wider feild of veiw you get a better picture of what mirage is doing. in my experience with a very narrow feild of veiw you can only see the mirage on the edges of the target but with a wider feild of veiw you can accualy see the angle that it is bending. I wish some one would make an eye peice that zoomed from 10-20 X that would be about perfect for target shooting in my opinion. by the way I have kowa scopes that have an adapter that goes on the eyepeice so they can be used on more than one scope I may try to adapt one to use the pentax eyepeices mentioned in an previous post in this thread.

 

[DBailey]

For those of you who use a spotting scope to check mirage when shooting F class, do you prefer a straight or angled eye piece?

Angled.

 

[brian427cobra]

For F-Class angled is the way to go, I don't shoot that any more and a straight Vortex Razor with 30x MRAD eyepiece is my choice, I have spent hours looking thru all the top brands, I spent my money on a Razor.