hello people, i'm new at using a forum of any kind. please put up with me for a moment. my name is jack and i live in lindenhurst, ny. i have been reloading for almost 23 years and i must say that all was well till i bought a brand new redding turret press to replace my lyman all american turret from the late 50's. with that old press i was getting a bullet run out of .0015-002 on average. now i must tell that that was possible because i do the work needed to my bass as if i shoot benchrest target. a bit over kill i know. now i thought i would upgrade my press and bought a redding t-7 turret press. big mistake! for the last 2 years, i can't seem to get consistent 0015-002 bullet run out. i have sent it to redding and they replaced the bushing and tightened it down to where i now get 003- 005 run out, instead of the 005-010 i was getting out of the box. they claim nothing else was wrong..does anyone use this press and have a similar run out problem? i'm going back to my old press now and it seams this new press was a waste of money. my friends dillon press does a much better job. thanks for your time.
the redding t- 7 turret press and bullet runout
- Thread starter sav12target
- Start date
nicholst55
Brass Whore
No experience with the Redding T7. Are you certain that its the press causing the runout, and not your dies?
The dies, I’m assuming, are the same dies successfully used with his 1950’s vintage Lyman. If so, and if there’s nothing wrong with the new T-7, then the poor concentricity has to be coming from something(s) that’s happening, or isn’t but should be, during the initial setup and/or adjustment of those dies in the new T-7.
Try letting the shellholder float by removing the snap ring that holds the shellholder in place on top of the ram. It this works you can replace the snap ring with an o-ring (optional).
Also try installing an o-ring between the locking nut and the die body on the seating stem and the decapping rod. Tighten the lock nuts only enough to add a bit of friction to the stem or rod. I know for a fact that the T-7 has been used successfully by a few BR competitors (Score) who are confident enough to pre-load for matches.
Also try installing an o-ring between the locking nut and the die body on the seating stem and the decapping rod. Tighten the lock nuts only enough to add a bit of friction to the stem or rod. I know for a fact that the T-7 has been used successfully by a few BR competitors (Score) who are confident enough to pre-load for matches.
thank you LHSmith for that o-ring idea, i will give it a go.as for my dies, well they too are redding, and they all worked well in old press. as for the brass, i use federal gold metal, lapau, and remington for my 06,308,25'06,270 wby,223. i do alot of prep work using the remington brass since it shares duty in being 30'06 , to becoming 25'06. i find on the redding press that piston seems to be out of alignment with the dies when you raise it up to size position. watching this at a 90 degree side angle you can see the larger cases actually tilt a little. with the stem and sizing button gone, shell concentricity is held to no more than 002.so the idea of using a floating shellholder and sizing stem is probably right on. i also use the redding carbine buttons that float on the stem already so if i leave the stem loose it may give a little more. thanks again people. right now i'm using the old lyman, and having no problems making 223 ammo for a buddy..i,ll go back to the redding later. jack
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
This may seen counter intuitive but given that rams are not a high ticket item, if you have the means, why not consider something that a very successful benchrest shooter in Texas has done. He has turned his press rams (He uses a set of three Partner presses to load at the range.) He turned down the rams of his loading presses by .005 (I think) to allow cases to align with dies. A friend who tool a look at his Rockchuckers took another approach. He turned down the smallest diameter of his shell holders, and reduced the diameter of their bottom flange. After that, he wanted more freedom of movement and so he chucked up and indicated in the ram and opened up the top of the slot that retains shell holders a little so that when viewed from the top the shape of the cut was like a keyhole instead of a slot. Finally, if I were in your position, I would simply ask to return the press to the manufacturer, trading it in for one of their single stage presses that has a thread adapter at the top. Then you can buy a Lock and Load adapter and bushings and change dies about as fast as with a turret, with the alignment of a good single stage press.
Chappy
Silver $$ Contributor
This is just what I do when setting up a die in the press. Once I get the die set to bump the shoulder correctly, before locking the ring down, I run the ram down a hair and put a washer that has been ground perfectly flat on both sides on top of the shell holder and run the ram up till the shell holder/washer/bottom of the die are all touching, then lock down the ring. This little trick has really helped my run out and will truly tell me if there is something wrong with the dies. I'd give it a try. 
Chappy said:This is just what I do when setting up a die in the press. Once I get the die set to bump the shoulder correctly, before locking the ring down, I run the ram down a hair and put a washer that has been ground perfectly flat on both sides on top of the shell holder and run the ram up till the shell holder/washer/bottom of the die are all touching, then lock down the ring. This little trick has really helped my run out and will truly tell me if there is something wrong with the dies. I'd give it a try.
Yep,^^^^, the upwards pressure will top out the die in the clearance that has to exist between all internal/external thread sets, the die will tend to settle centered in the press’s threads, and assuming all is true with the contacting surfaces of the die, the locking ring and the press, the die will end up locked in place both centered on and square to the press ram.
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
My friend, who did some actual testing found that his presses had some issues that no amount of die setup could correct. That is why he did the modifications that I mentioned.
I know a few bullet makers, and the presses that they use may require some remedial machining to be good enough for that task. One has told me that his die maker told him that the Redding O type presses are good enough for that work as is, and a couple of others have mentioned how straight that the Lee Classic cast iron press is. Those guys have to be a lot pickier than any reloader generally is, and the die makers actually measure the presses themselves instead of guessing.
As far as floating dies goes, the Forster press makes a particular point of that, both for the case and die, and users report favorably on the results. Of course, due to the nature of the task, bullet making dies and punches cannot be used that way.
I have used the Lock and Load adapter in my Rockchucker with good results, and find no disadvantage in it as far as size case or loaded ammo concentricity is concerned.
I know a few bullet makers, and the presses that they use may require some remedial machining to be good enough for that task. One has told me that his die maker told him that the Redding O type presses are good enough for that work as is, and a couple of others have mentioned how straight that the Lee Classic cast iron press is. Those guys have to be a lot pickier than any reloader generally is, and the die makers actually measure the presses themselves instead of guessing.
As far as floating dies goes, the Forster press makes a particular point of that, both for the case and die, and users report favorably on the results. Of course, due to the nature of the task, bullet making dies and punches cannot be used that way.
I have used the Lock and Load adapter in my Rockchucker with good results, and find no disadvantage in it as far as size case or loaded ammo concentricity is concerned.
Pietro panama
Gold $$ Contributor
I am not as experienced as most of you all, but let me share. T-7 was my first press a few years ago. Good enough for reloading non-precision ammo, such as Mausers, Garands, 03s, etc.
When I moved up to precision shooting and was turning 6BR necks, noticed the machine mark on shoulder was not uniform on the full 360 degree circumference-----'oblong' if you will-----machined low on one side and higher on opposite side----180 degrees apart. Indication that shoulder was not being uniformly sized vertically in T-7.
Finally observed that when press handle is pulled down with maximum force, the T-7 table deflects upward. Take a "peek" under table when you pull down and you will see daylight between table and base. New table bushing, bolt, etc. might slightly reduce, but I think tolerance stack up will not eliminate the lack of concentricity between table and shell holder---table is angled upward. Result----shoulder high/low.
Purchased a Forster Co-ax a few months ago. The concentric design (vs. cantilever design of T-7) solves the problem. Everything is concentric/ in-line.
When I moved up to precision shooting and was turning 6BR necks, noticed the machine mark on shoulder was not uniform on the full 360 degree circumference-----'oblong' if you will-----machined low on one side and higher on opposite side----180 degrees apart. Indication that shoulder was not being uniformly sized vertically in T-7.
Finally observed that when press handle is pulled down with maximum force, the T-7 table deflects upward. Take a "peek" under table when you pull down and you will see daylight between table and base. New table bushing, bolt, etc. might slightly reduce, but I think tolerance stack up will not eliminate the lack of concentricity between table and shell holder---table is angled upward. Result----shoulder high/low.
Purchased a Forster Co-ax a few months ago. The concentric design (vs. cantilever design of T-7) solves the problem. Everything is concentric/ in-line.
Years ago I was steered away from turret presses for precision loads. Folks I respected held the opinions that ALL turret presses with a central attachment to the frame would flex, thereby causing "runout" or to be more accurate, poor concentricity of the loaded cartridge. I never bought a turret press until I got more interested in shooting and loading for handguns, and when I did I bought the least expensive press I could find, that being a Lee.
Oddly, the Lee was not designed around a central attachment but was more a captured cage sort of arrangement. Watching the press in action showed me that the turret could not flex like a central attached "axle" type press, since the entire turret was stopped by the lugs on the inner raceway of the press frame.
Since the turrets were cheap and I really was not anxious to prove that the turret was just as good as my more expensive la de da match grade super duper deluxe precision press, I tried the Lee out on my Winchester model 70 in .30-06 loads but not any match rifle loads. There was no discernible difference in groups at 200 yards fired by the Winchester model 70 using identical loads from either press. All were within .30 MOA when I did my job behind the scope right. I tested 100 rounds of each press production. I do not bother with measuring concentricity any longer as all my remaining rifles are "blueprinted" and my presses trued, or let the case float at the head when sizing or seating. There is no way to get out of shape that way.
All this agonizing about "runout" seems like a great waste of time and money to me since there are only two causes, neither of which can be corrected by the majority of handloaders, by the single load. To be more succinct, you get a case out of shape if your bolt face is not perpendicular to the chamber or the chamber is not concentric to the bore, or the whole arrangement is sloppy--this describes most fresh from the factory rifles which account for the vast majority of rifles in this world. Unless you pay for a blueprinting job, which you will not, since you were buying a cheap rifle in the first place-----there is nothing you can do about it. As soon as you shoot the round it gets deformed. The other way to screw up concentricity is with a press that is out of true. This is a not all that uncommon situation with "C" and "O" presses. For a learned and convincing essay on this subject see the Corbin website http://www.corbins.com/csp-1.htm which says among other things:
"Years of development have gone into building a precision alignment system for the CSP-1 press ram and head. Both for precision reloading and for bullet making, the axial and angular alignment must be precise for best results. Most presses have two kinds of alignment error.
1.Axial offset
This kind of alignment error occurs when a press casting is drilled from one end, flipped, and drilled from the other. The axis of the hole for the ram may not be exactly on line with the center of the hole for the head, because of drill drift or holding variances. The ram is parallel to the head but runs off to one side of it.
2.Angular offset
This kind of alignment error occurs when the drill either flexes or bends slightly in passing through the gap between the ram bore and the head, or the press casting is turned around to drill from both ends and there is an angular alignment error in the clamping. The two holes appear to be in alignment, but one or both are actually tipped slightly about the centerline. The ram runs at a slight angle to the head. " Again, what can you do about it?
I think all these things only become a problem when you are trying to make a Ruger or a savage shoot like a Lester Bruno (et. al.) build and isn't that why we spend the extra $$$ But I suppose there are always those who will buy the gadgets to try to make a silk purse out of.........or a race car out of a factory camero or mustang and that keeps the gadget makers busy and employs folks and such.........It seems to me that the only thing a concentricity gage does for you is let you know there is a problem-in that area---if you have covered all the other bases beginning with shooting over wind flags and perfecting you bench technique-which a great many people skip right over and go for the cause that does not involve them actually learning how to shoot-----the only way to fix it may be well out of your price range, certainly no gadget will fix an out of true rifle or press.............
I no longer have the old model 70 but I do still have the Lee turret press, albeit an upgrade to the classic was desirable if only for spent primer capture. It works just fine for the handguns and my AR loads.
Oddly, the Lee was not designed around a central attachment but was more a captured cage sort of arrangement. Watching the press in action showed me that the turret could not flex like a central attached "axle" type press, since the entire turret was stopped by the lugs on the inner raceway of the press frame.
Since the turrets were cheap and I really was not anxious to prove that the turret was just as good as my more expensive la de da match grade super duper deluxe precision press, I tried the Lee out on my Winchester model 70 in .30-06 loads but not any match rifle loads. There was no discernible difference in groups at 200 yards fired by the Winchester model 70 using identical loads from either press. All were within .30 MOA when I did my job behind the scope right. I tested 100 rounds of each press production. I do not bother with measuring concentricity any longer as all my remaining rifles are "blueprinted" and my presses trued, or let the case float at the head when sizing or seating. There is no way to get out of shape that way.
All this agonizing about "runout" seems like a great waste of time and money to me since there are only two causes, neither of which can be corrected by the majority of handloaders, by the single load. To be more succinct, you get a case out of shape if your bolt face is not perpendicular to the chamber or the chamber is not concentric to the bore, or the whole arrangement is sloppy--this describes most fresh from the factory rifles which account for the vast majority of rifles in this world. Unless you pay for a blueprinting job, which you will not, since you were buying a cheap rifle in the first place-----there is nothing you can do about it. As soon as you shoot the round it gets deformed. The other way to screw up concentricity is with a press that is out of true. This is a not all that uncommon situation with "C" and "O" presses. For a learned and convincing essay on this subject see the Corbin website http://www.corbins.com/csp-1.htm which says among other things:
"Years of development have gone into building a precision alignment system for the CSP-1 press ram and head. Both for precision reloading and for bullet making, the axial and angular alignment must be precise for best results. Most presses have two kinds of alignment error.
1.Axial offset
This kind of alignment error occurs when a press casting is drilled from one end, flipped, and drilled from the other. The axis of the hole for the ram may not be exactly on line with the center of the hole for the head, because of drill drift or holding variances. The ram is parallel to the head but runs off to one side of it.
2.Angular offset
This kind of alignment error occurs when the drill either flexes or bends slightly in passing through the gap between the ram bore and the head, or the press casting is turned around to drill from both ends and there is an angular alignment error in the clamping. The two holes appear to be in alignment, but one or both are actually tipped slightly about the centerline. The ram runs at a slight angle to the head. " Again, what can you do about it?
I think all these things only become a problem when you are trying to make a Ruger or a savage shoot like a Lester Bruno (et. al.) build and isn't that why we spend the extra $$$ But I suppose there are always those who will buy the gadgets to try to make a silk purse out of.........or a race car out of a factory camero or mustang and that keeps the gadget makers busy and employs folks and such.........It seems to me that the only thing a concentricity gage does for you is let you know there is a problem-in that area---if you have covered all the other bases beginning with shooting over wind flags and perfecting you bench technique-which a great many people skip right over and go for the cause that does not involve them actually learning how to shoot-----the only way to fix it may be well out of your price range, certainly no gadget will fix an out of true rifle or press.............
I no longer have the old model 70 but I do still have the Lee turret press, albeit an upgrade to the classic was desirable if only for spent primer capture. It works just fine for the handguns and my AR loads.
Pietro panama
Gold $$ Contributor
amamnn: excellent observations and analysis. 'A difference to be a difference has to make a difference'. That is why I differentiated between military rifles (that are not made for sub MOA) and precision stuff---different leagues.
Not that reloading procedures don't make a difference, but the 'barrel' is all important. Hunting rifles don't require precision---big kill zone compared to X ring.
Not that reloading procedures don't make a difference, but the 'barrel' is all important. Hunting rifles don't require precision---big kill zone compared to X ring.
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