Stupid bushing die question

[Uncle Ed]

I installed the Forster expander and spindle assemblies on all my Redding non-bushing dies. This reduced neck runout rather than dragging the larger Redding expander through the neck.

I replace the expanders on my RCBS dies also, and my runout gauge tells me what works best.

 

[AlNyhus]

Uncle Ed: I wouldn't argue with any of that. In fact, on several of my Redding dies, I've fitted them with the floating carbide expanders. These are for guns that don't have turned necks or that I don't use a bushing style die for.

Of course, the neck O.D.'s being out of round/eccentric is another area that may need to be brought under control for best results with a bushing dies. I've found that .002 T.I.R. is about the outer limits when using a bushing die. Above that and a bushing die may not be the best approach.

Good shootin'. -Al

 

[Uncle Ed]

ncduckman:

Here's what I'm talking about re: the Type S dies expander and reduced diameter decapping pin nut:

This is the standard expander that comes with the Redding Type S f.l. bushing dies...it's the standard expander, just like a normal Redding die would use. In this case, it's for a 6BR. Note the diameter.

Here's the reduced diameter decapping pin 'nut' that also comes with the Redding Type S f.l. dies. Again, note the diameter.

This decapping pin 'nut' is on average .018-.020 smaller than the standard expander. This is so it doesn't touch the inside of the neck.

Hope this helps. -Al

It is smaller because it just holds the decapping pin and not designed to expand the neck. All my Redding dies have both the decaping pin holder and a expander. So if you neck turn the expander is not needed and you use the "nut" that just holds the decaping pin.

In the photo below the Forster expander in the center has the same type "nut" holding the decaping pin. And the Redding expander is on the left in the photo.

 

[243Lapua]

Well, then that doesn't make any sense at all. So I bought three expensive bushing dies, and still need to by expensive bushings; but it doesn't matter what size bushing I choose as the size is determined by the expander?

That makes zero sense to me.

The Redding type S dies will come with the option to remove the expander. It's should be included with the set.

 

[AlNyhus]

It is smaller because it just holds the decapping pin and not designed to expand the neck. All my Redding dies have both the decaping pin holder and a expander.

My point exactly......

 

[Bc'z]

Thanks for the replies. I have read many of these threads. I guess I didn't find a definitive answer/clarification to my question.

So, bear with me here, just trying to clear my swimming head. This is how I understand it now:

The expander ball in my 260 Remington full length Type S die is 0.263",; and the neck thickness of my Norma brass is 0.0125" (based on measuring a loaded round). So, if I purchase the 0.275" bushing, then the ID of my neck should be 0.263" (assume uniform neck thickness). If that is the case, then the expander ball will provide zero/minimal sizing of the neck (theoretically). AND, if there is 0.001" of spring back, then the ball would not touch the neck at all.

So the purpose of the expander is to push the inconsistencies to the outside of the neck, correct?

So, say you want MORE than 0.001" neck tension (for a hunting round/etc), then Redding should really get into the business of selling expander balls in varying diameters, correct?

Perhaps Redding should clarify that their dies do not provide more than 0.001" neck tension when using the expander.

Lastly, are there those out there that do not use a mandrel at all with the expander removed and just let the bushing do ALL of the neck sizing?

Thank you for your patience!

(sorry if it appears I was ignoring the last couple replies. they came in as I was typing this)

Your math is wrong if you use a .275 your over working the brass.
If your neck wall thickness is .0125 you multiply that by 2 = .025 + .263 = .288 bushing.
I like to have .002 above and below for testing neck tension.
Bruno's has the best price on Wilson bushings $13 apiece.

 

[ncduckman]

Your math is wrong if you use a .275 your over working the brass.

Yes, you are correct. I calculated 0.288" as well. I was looking at my notes for all three calibers (243, 260, & 308) and accidentally typed the 243 bushing size.

 

[ncduckman]

And Redding tells you if the neck thickness varies .002 or more to select a smaller bushing and use the expander to set the inside diameter. This pushes the neck thickness variations to the outside of the neck as it should.

The first question to ask when it comes to bushing dies is if the OP has a SAAMI chamber.

The second question is what if any gauges they have to check the quality of the brass and neck runout after sizing. And then do they want or plan to neck turn their brass.

The real question to ask before answering a question is do they shoot in competition or just reload for target practice and hunting. And the military considers match grade ammunition to have .003 or less bullet runout.

If you remove the expander from any brand of non-bushing full length die and size the case it will be as concentric as it ever will be. This is because the case body and case neck are held in perfect alignment.

A Forster full length die has a high mounted floating expander. And the neck of the case is held and centered in the neck of the die when the expander enters the case neck. This prevents the neck from being pulled off center and inducing neck runout. And if you think your Forster die is reducing the neck diameter excessively you can have Forster hone the neck to the desired diameter.

Excellent post Uncle Ed! Thank you so much.

To answer your questions:

I am not a competition shooter (yet). I am just an engineer who shoots for fun and hunts as well. I am a super anal retentive/OCD/detail oriented/precision nerd guy. So I really get into the nitty gritty of tiny groups, thousandths of inches, and hundredths of grains. Unfortunately, I am sure I am taking things way beyond my and my rifles' abilities to shoot straight.

1. I am running standard SAAMI chambers on my bone stock Savage rifles.
2. I do not have concentricity gauges or a ball micrometer yet.
3. I am not sure if I plan on neck turning, but given that I am an enginerd, I probably will.

I really like that Forster expander and that makes perfect sense to me.

Thank you again!
Robert

 

[rogina]

I installed the Forster expander and spindle assemblies on all my Redding non-bushing dies. This reduced neck runout rather than dragging the larger Redding expander through the neck.

I replace the expanders on my RCBS dies also, and my runout gauge tells me what works best.

ED, I let my targets tell me what is working.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Sometimes you gotta seperate the wheat from the chaff. Ditch the expander ball and buy some more bushings. Measure your neck OD with a bullet seated and buy a bushing .001, .002, and .003 smaller than that measurement. Its a pretty simple operation with only simple subtraction involved. Dont try to nerd it into difficulty and focus your efforts elsewhere. Your die is fine, if you do anything besides getting a whidden or wilson bushing FL die youre going backwards

 

[D-4297]

^^^^^^^ What Dusty said . And more . Since you have standard chambers in your rifles , you would experience minimal gains , if any , from neck turning your brass . It may even make things worse in the long run , as you are thinning the brass that will expand excessively in a SAAMI chamber . Then you have to reduce the neck back down , working it excessively , to a useable diameter . I went through all of these processes while learning to load for F-TR in .308 , and the old adages do apply . Less really is more , when working brass in the neck area , and the Woody Hayes theory is highly appropriate . KISS ! "Keep it Simple , Stupid" ! Meaning , the more steps you add to the process , the more things involved that can invariably go wrong .
I learned that the better fit I had on my case in the chamber ; meaning , how close the case fit into the chamber , from bolt to shoulder , the more accurate my rounds became . Shoulder Bump dimension is just as critical , as any other measurement . You already have .003 - .004 clearance in your neck area , or more , and having a good shoulder bump measurement will assist to "center" the round in the chamber . And as Dusty said ; a quality Full Length Bushing die will aid in both facets of the process . I have Whidden F/L Bushing Dies for both my TR and Open rifles , and though they are a bit pricey , they are worth every penny . And since you are new to this , I would also recommend the Click Adjustable Ring for easier set-up and use.
Disclaimer to the OP : I also have a Assoc. in Mechanical Eng. and spent thirty-five years in the shop as a carbide Tool & Diemaker . Mostly in the Aerospace industry . Went past O.C.D. long ago .