Strange thing happened...

[Rsadams]

Today I fired some of my .223 reloads over a crono to compare to factory remington .223 after stepping up the charge of TAC from 23.1 to 23.5 I noticed one out of three fired had a slightly flattened primer.. I would pick up the brass after firing 3rnd groups and there it was again. First I fired 2 rounds of the factory to foul the barrel then 5 more over the crono to get a reading, non had even close to a flattened primer they were perfect.

Just fyi it was from a remington case fired from my gun with 23.5gr of tac and a cci primer at something like 2.210 coal and a hornady 55gr fmj-bt bullet headspace at .003 or .004 3rd firing on brass. Fired from a sig m4 with a 5.56 chamber. It shot great but with a 5.56 chamber it should be good for a lot more charge. 23.9 being max from the hornady manual.but ramshot states that's almost a starting load..

I've never seen a flattened primer with this gun and there was non at 23.1gr. I didn't see any signs on the other 2 of 3 cases and this happened 3 times on 3 sets of 3 and it was hot and humid that day but everything,gun and ammo was in the shade. I have reloaded it again everything the same exept seating to the canalure then applying a light crimp with a FCD. Becouse before I noticed some seated slightly above the canalure just useing the rcbs seating die set at one length it never seats them the same so I just seated them all to about the middle of the canalure and crimped. The gun is iron sighted so super long range accuracy is kinda a moot point.. As stated above 2 of 3 were fine and on the 3rd there was no black ring around the primer or ejector marks. This time I numbered them 1,2 and 3 to see which one does it. Any ideas?? iam not even sure how to ask the question of what happened.. Just BTW all components primers ,bullets and powder are of the same lot.. So is this last batch I loaded still out of the same lot and same fired brass, but haven't fired those yet..

Sorry so long...

 

[dickn52]

Primer pockets not uniformed?

 

[hogpatrol]

Clean the hell out of it. You may have the beginnings of a carbon ring.

 

[jlow]

Today I fired some of my .223 reloads over a crono to compare to factory remington .223 after stepping up the charge of TAC from 23.1 to 23.5 I noticed one out of three fired had a slightly flattened primer.. I would pick up the brass after firing 3rnd groups and there it was again. First I fired 2 rounds of the factory to foul the barrel then 5 more over the crono to get a reading, non had even close to a flattened primer they were perfect.

Just fyi it was from a remington case fired from my gun with 23.5gr of tac and a cci primer at something like 2.210 coal and a hornady 55gr fmj-bt bullet headspace at .003 or .004 3rd firing on brass. Fired from a sig m4 with a 5.56 chamber. It shot great but with a 5.56 chamber it should be good for a lot more charge. 23.9 being max from the hornady manual.but ramshot states that's almost a starting load..

I've never seen a flattened primer with this gun and there was non at 23.1gr. I didn't see any signs on the other 2 of 3 cases and this happened 3 times on 3 sets of 3 and it was hot and humid that day but everything,gun and ammo was in the shade. I have reloaded it again everything the same exept seating to the canalure then applying a light crimp with a FCD. Becouse before I noticed some seated slightly above the canalure just useing the rcbs seating die set at one length it never seats them the same so I just seated them all to about the middle of the canalure and crimped. The gun is iron sighted so super long range accuracy is kinda a moot point.. As stated above 2 of 3 were fine and on the 3rd there was no black ring around the primer or ejector marks. This time I numbered them 1,2 and 3 to see which one does it. Any ideas?? iam not even sure how to ask the question of what happened.. Just BTW all components primers ,bullets and powder are of the same lot.. So is this last batch I loaded still out of the same lot and same fired brass, but haven't fired those yet..

Sorry so long...

You mentioned “Becouse before I noticed some seated slightly above the canalure just useing the rcbs seating die set at one length it never seats them the same so I just seated them all to about the middle of the canalure and crimped.”

If you do this, then you will end up seating some bullets deeper than others. Seating bullets is NEVER suppose to be done this way because different seating depth causes different case volume and that affects pressure. I understand you are trying to seat the so that you can crimp to the middle of the cannalure but that is a NO NO.

 

[Rsadams]

Primer pockets not uniformed?

No I got in trouble for not doing it by my buddy..lol I guess I will start doing it...seems many do..

 

[Rsadams]

You mentioned “Becouse before I noticed some seated slightly above the canalure just useing the rcbs seating die set at one length it never seats them the same so I just seated them all to about the middle of the canalure and crimped.”

If you do this, then you will end up seating some bullets deeper than others. Seating bullets is NEVER suppose to be done this way because different seating depth causes different case volume and that affects pressure. I understand you are trying to seat the so that you can crimp to the middle of the cannalure but that is a NO NO.

Ok I won't do it again.. Just trying to seat around the canalure instead of around the bullet like you said.. Do you think I should pull the bullets and start over or just fire them? This made the coal actually longer than I normally seat at, not shorter.. But I do understand what you are saying. The book wants 2.200 coal but everybody seats longer than that it seems like..

 

[Rsadams]

Clean the hell out of it. You may have the beginnings of a carbon ring.

I did when I got home,,chamber brushed and all.. I clean every time I shoot. I know many dont, but if a shoot a pistol or rifle I clean them when I get home. Even .22...

 

[jlow]

Ok I won't do it again.. Just trying to seat around the canalure instead of around the bullet like you said.. Do you think I should pull the bullets and start over or just fire them? This made the coal actually longer than I normally seat at, not shorter.. But I do understand what you are saying. The book wants 2.200 coal but everybody seats longer than that it seems like..

First of all, you should clearly understand the rationale for why bullets are seated to a specific depth before changing off book value. There is quite a bit of it to learn and I would suggest reading up on it. It is really beyond the scope of a casual conversation for me to teach you this.

If you are just trying to load plinking ammo, I would suggest just seating to book value. Since your bullets have a canalure and you have crimped them, I doubt you can just seat them deeper to book value so yes I would just pull them. As to just firing them? It is impossible and irresponsible for me to give you advice to do this since I know nothing about your load and how deep or long you have actually seated them. Even knowing this, I would have to test by gradually increase/decrease them to the length you have them before I know how safe they are. Obviously you have seen some sign of pressure i.e. flattened primer, so if this makes you nervous, I would again suggest pulling them.

 

[Rsadams]

Bullets are seated longer than when I saw slightly flattened primers.. Was 2.210 now 2.225 or so..the hornady book says 2.200 with that charge. The reason I seated them out on the canalure was becouse on the previous batch some were crimped above the canalure, some were seated high. Some in the middle etc. I wondered if this is why I was seeing pressure on some but not all. Each charge is hand trickled exactly the same, that's the way I do all rifle loads..

I still don't understand why this could happen in a 5.56 chamber loading to .223 specs. And when 23.9 is the max for .223 in hornady manual but just above a starting load useing ramshots data.. It also isn't even a starting load for 5.56 at 23.5gr, a start load for 5.56 is over 24gr in the hornady manual.

I looked at ramshots data it's starting load is 23.2gr of tac at 2.200 iam at 23.5gr. Also their staring charge for 5.56 is 24.5gr both at 2.200 with a hornady 55gr fmj-bt bullet. At 23.5 with a longer coal shouldn't I be well within acceptable limits?

 

[r bose]

You say your using "A" CCI primer. See chart below.

Manufacturer Number A B C
Cup Cup Cup
Thickness Diameter Height
Small Rifle
CCI 400 .020" .1753" .109"
450 .025" .1750" .113"
BR4 .025" .1755" .109"
Federal 200 .019" .1757" .111"
205M .0225" .1744" .1075"
Remington 6 1/2 .020" .1753" .109"
7 1/2 .025" .1752" .110"
Winchester SR .021" .1750" .109"
Large Rifle
CCI 200 .027" .2112" .118"
250 .027" .2113" .118"
Federal 210 .027" .2120" .117"
215 -- -- --
Remington 9 1/2 .027" .2100" .119"
Winchester LR .027" .2114" .121"
Mag .027" .2114" .121"
from Calhoon


The first number next to the type of primer is the cup thickness. I will only use CCI 450's, BR4's and Remington 71/2's in 223/5.56 loads. All of these primers are .025 cup thickness. If I substituted any of the other primers in my loads I'd have Flattened, pierced, and blown primers all day long.

Also, if you're using brass that doesn't have the same priming seating pressure when inserted, you'll get different levels of flattening which is no big deal. Also keep in mind as you fire your weapon, the chamber is heating up and as new rounds are inserted, they will have a "warmer" load due to increased temp.

FWIW, I shoot 24.0g tac in LC brass with 450's primers and a 75g hornady hpbt at mag length, 2.260, in XTC matches with no issues. If anything your loads are light.

 

['Freak]

Thinkin’ supposed to don’t crimp at all unless the crimp is going to fold the case mouth over into the bullet’s cannelure, but could be me thinker thang is wrong.

 

[Ggmac]

The bullets listed vary a lot in length , as to crimp location / ogive length . Do you trim the brass ? If not , again a possible . Last ,published data was safe in that particular set up , each gun is different .
Good luck . One last possible , different flash hole diam . Alow more gas to flatten the cup

 

[jlow]

Bullets are seated longer than when I saw slightly flattened primers.. Was 2.210 now 2.225 or so..the hornady book says 2.200 with that charge. The reason I seated them out on the canalure was becouse on the previous batch some were crimped above the canalure, some were seated high. Some in the middle etc. I wondered if this is why I was seeing pressure on some but not all. Each charge is hand trickled exactly the same, that's the way I do all rifle loads..

I still don't understand why this could happen in a 5.56 chamber loading to .223 specs. And when 23.9 is the max for .223 in hornady manual but just above a starting load useing ramshots data.. It also isn't even a starting load for 5.56 at 23.5gr, a start load for 5.56 is over 24gr in the hornady manual.

I looked at ramshots data it's starting load is 23.2gr of tac at 2.200 iam at 23.5gr. Also their staring charge for 5.56 is 24.5gr both at 2.200 with a hornady 55gr fmj-bt bullet. At 23.5 with a longer coal shouldn't I be well within acceptable limits?

If your bullets have canalure which vary in location, then they were likely poorly made. Yes, if you crimp some on the canalure and other not, it could result in different pressure, but changing seating depth to get a consistent crimp on the canalure is not the answer.

As to loading to .223 spec and getting pressure, you have to understand that spec does not take into account crimping and of course crimping can vary greatly in terms of how strong the crimp can be. A really strong crimp would be like really strong neck tension and that can affect pressure.

Like I said before, if you are going to experiment, and that is a good thing, make sure you understand what that involves and may lead to and what the dangers can be and what the danger signs are. Of course go slowely and carefully.

 

[Rsadams]

The bullets listed vary a lot in length , as to crimp location / ogive length . Do you trim the brass ? If not , again a possible . Last ,published data was safe in that particular set up , each gun is different .
Good luck . One last possible , different flash hole diam . Alow more gas to flatten the cup

I check length and trim. This time each piece of brass is exactly the same. But before yes they were trimmed to length.

 

[Rsadams]

You say your using "A" CCI primer. See chart below.

Manufacturer Number A B C
Cup Cup Cup
Thickness Diameter Height
Small Rifle
CCI 400 .020" .1753" .109"
450 .025" .1750" .113"
BR4 .025" .1755" .109"
Federal 200 .019" .1757" .111"
205M .0225" .1744" .1075"
Remington 6 1/2 .020" .1753" .109"
7 1/2 .025" .1752" .110"
Winchester SR .021" .1750" .109"
Large Rifle
CCI 200 .027" .2112" .118"
250 .027" .2113" .118"
Federal 210 .027" .2120" .117"
215 -- -- --
Remington 9 1/2 .027" .2100" .119"
Winchester LR .027" .2114" .121"
Mag .027" .2114" .121"
from Calhoon


The first number next to the type of primer is the cup thickness. I will only use CCI 450's, BR4's and Remington 71/2's in 223/5.56 loads. All of these primers are .025 cup thickness. If I substituted any of the other primers in my loads I'd have Flattened, pierced, and blown primers all day long.

Also, if you're using brass that doesn't have the same priming seating pressure when inserted, you'll get different levels of flattening which is no big deal. Also keep in mind as you fire your weapon, the chamber is heating up and as new rounds are inserted, they will have a "warmer" load due to increased temp.

FWIW, I shoot 24.0g tac in LC brass with 450's primers and a 75g hornady hpbt at mag length, 2.260, in XTC matches with no issues. If anything your loads are light.

Thanks everyone, yes the loads are light I was trying to get to markm load of 24.5 gr but then found out he used a different primer. It was a very hot day and I did notice the barrel as warming a tiny bit which since I normally shoot during winter becouse of getting to hot one to many times. I never noticed before. That was the thought that popped into my mind.

After this fireing I am going to trash the brass and replace it with some IMI brass and will uniform the pockets in the new brass.

The crimp is a light crimp. FCD set up one half a turn like instructions say just to help old the bullets in place for use in a semi-auto.

The primers are just standered 400 cci SR primers.

 

[r bose]

Do not use CCI 400 primers. They are thinner and pierce and flatten very easily.

 

[jlow]

Do not use CCI 400 primers. They are thinner and pierce and flatten very easily.

This is correct. They are one of the thinnest cup primers and will flatten sometimes even at min load.

 

[Rsadams]

This is correct. They are one of the thinnest cup primers and will flatten sometimes even at min load.

Ok thanks,, I appreciate your time on this one.. I think we may have found the problem.. Next brass I will uniform the pockets and try another primers. Primers are hard to find local but I can get 450s and br4 CCI.
I will shoot these one last time that will make 4 reloads and toss them. I picked up some nice IMI ammo so I will shoot a box and use those next.

 

[Shaggy357]

I will surmise there is nothing wrong with your brass. IMHO, CCI 400 are the softest primer on the market and I only have them in my cabinet because that was all that was available at the time and they are good for plinking loads. I loaded 1000 .223s last weekend. 600 with CCI 400 primers with a light plinking load. These are intentionally light loads for forming my brass and to confirm die settings in a new gun. Out of the 600, I lost 8 primers during seating....that is better than 1% loss just in seating with a good tool. They are just too soft. I loaded the other 400 brass with CCI 450 primers and a little hotter load. I lost none of these. All seated 100% perfect. I have another couple thousand brass about ready to go and will load with Rem 7 1/2s or similar as they will be full house AR loads for hunting.

You stated you shot your loads over the chronograph and mention one out of three shots had a flattened primer. You did not state anything about abnormality with group size or velocities. With CCI 400 primers and no obvious issue in chronograph data, I would say you are just fine. You just found out how soft the CCI 400s are and how a minor difference in firing order, seating depth, or whatever can change view of the primer. Any other primer I may be concerned. Not with the ol' softies.....

My $.02

Steve

 

[Rsadams]

I will surmise there is nothing wrong with your brass. IMHO, CCI 400 are the softest primer on the market and I only have them in my cabinet because that was all that was available at the time and they are good for plinking loads. I loaded 1000 .223s last weekend. 600 with CCI 400 primers with a light plinking load. These are intentionally light loads for forming my brass and to confirm die settings in a new gun. Out of the 600, I lost 8 primers during seating....that is better than 1% loss just in seating with a good tool. They are just too soft. I loaded the other 400 brass with CCI 450 primers and a little hotter load. I lost none of these. All seated 100% perfect. I have another couple thousand brass about ready to go and will load with Rem 7 1/2s or similar as they will be full house AR loads for hunting.

You stated you shot your loads over the chronograph and mention one out of three shots had a flattened primer. You did not state anything about abnormality with group size or velocities. With CCI 400 primers and no obvious issue in chronograph data, I would say you are just fine. You just found out how soft the CCI 400s are and how a minor difference in firing order, seating depth, or whatever can change view of the primer. Any other primer I may be concerned. Not with the ol' softies.....

My $.02

Steve

I did not see anything strange in group or over the crono about 200 to 300 fps slower than factory thats to be expected. They actually shot very well and had half the SD of the factory loads. I was just trying to duplicate the factory remington loads Becouse they actually shot well in that rifle. That's why I was surprised to see a slightly flattened primer in a few becouse the load in a 5.56 chamber is a low power .223 load.. Even ejection pattern was correct at about the 4:30 position..