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Sterile bore

It seems weird to suggest a guiding light for cleaning amounts to the actions of someone -who rarely does, and without basis..
And there is absolutely no way OUR barrels can hold peak performance with this. Hell most copper foul out by 50rnds, unless coated.
You mean this piece right? This was in yellow.

Tierney’s Views on Barrel Cleaning–Why Less Is More

Your editor asked me about my cleaning procedure. My response, half in jest, was that “I don’t have one.” This is controversial I know, but I do a LOT less barrel cleaning than most people do. I typically run a lot of rounds through the barrel before cleaning, and I rarely use a brush.

In a multi-day match, with all the rifles I shoot, I’ll almost always wait ’til the end of the match before cleaning. Only if I experience something unusual, then I’ll go ahead and clean. Most of the time, I do NOT brush. I’ll use Shooters Choice, wet patches, one wet, two dry. Occasionally I’ll use a nylon brush, maybe every third cleaning–about every 300 rounds. On a Palma barrel I’ll go up to 500 rounds between cleaning, so that might mean 2000 rounds between brushing. I’ve developed this cleaning regimen based on my observed match results. I’ve found that my X-count peaked with the Palma rifle at the fourth or fifth match (about 200-300 rounds). Once I get about 200 rounds through the barrel, the X-count seems to climb for about 150-200 rounds then levels out. And then I’ll clean at about 400 rounds.

On the 6.5-284 and .284 I’ll clean after a double match, so I’ll clean every 100-150 rounds. I haven’t needed to use JB on the throat. I’m not a fan of moly or putting any abrasive cleaners in my barrel. When I do brush, I use nylon and I’ll remove the brush after it exits the muzzle. I agree with the smiths who say that many barrels are ruined by improper cleaning. I’ve seen crown damage because of bad cleaning rod procedures. I do advocate taking the brush off at the end of the muzzle to protect the crown. And, as long as we’re stirring controversy here, I don’t uniform primer pockets, I don’t ream flash-holes (other than deburring Win brass), and I don’t religiously scrape out the primer pockets after each firing (I will if they’re real dirty). I’ve tested and I have not been able to demonstrate these processes deliver better accuracy or better scores.”
 
Mike,
If you read the intro. to the article, you saw that he has been able to produce results. There is also this.
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2008/04/tierney-wins-nbrsa-600-yard-nationals-with-elesio-tubegun/
What caliber are you shooting?
Boyd
Added later: And then there is this. http://www.accurateshooter.com/guns-of-week/gunweek044/
You have to scroll down more than half way to get to a question and answer about rifle cleaning.

Added still later: The reason that I put the information up about successful shooters who clean infrequently is that we sometimes approach problems with the attitude that we know all there is to know about the subject, when in fact we may not. Besides, I found their accounts interesting, and their qualifications quite evident.

On this having to shoot many shots to clear oil out of a bore, I don't oil, and my barrel life seems to be no different than those who take precautions not to shoot a bullet down a "dry" bore. I generally clean with Butch's Bore shine, and I believe that it has some oil in it. Have you ever tried to totally remove any oil from the outside of a barrel by rubbing it down with a few times with a patch? I patch out my barrels, and shoot them that way, but I do not think them to be dry. I have a friend with a bore scope that noticed that he had more carbon problems when he used oil in this bores, which he subsequently stopped doing. On the other hand, there are cleaners that I believe do not contain any oil, and for that reason one needs to follow their use with something that leaves a slight coating in the bore. Since my current solvent does not require this, and my barrels look good when inspected with a bore scope, I simply avoid those cleaners.
 
I have read several times in the past that oil in the bore leads to carbon. One barrel maker recommends using windex after cleaning to remove all traces of oil left buy cleaners. I do that or run a lot of dry patches. My guns seem to carbon much less since I have been doing this. Shooting a 22 BR, 6 PPC, 20 Tac, 221 Fireball, 22-250, 20 VarTar and some others I probably forgot. I am also talking match barrel....Kreigher, Lilja, and Cooper Firearms.
 
Geronimo Jim: Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Windex contain a large amount of water, it's basic makeup, with some cleaning solutions included? Just asking, I don't know.
 
I have been known to use "Brake Parts Cleaner" at times but I've never cleaned down to bare metal.
Windex or soapy water works real good on black powder rigs.
Oil real good after cleaning. ;)
 
WHOAH!!! How does 'this' happen?

I found a that a VLD load that shot the biggest group (0.7″) at 100 yards, also shot the smallest group (3.00″) at 1000 yards. So you can’t just rely on 100-yard results.
 
Guess you're tired of this thread?
You should search decreasing moa with distance or start another thread for this one. But I warn you, it gets ugly.
 
mikecr said:
Guess you're tired of this thread?

No, not tired of this thread. You have pretty much given me the answer I was looking for. Besides, I like to let others chime in; that allows others their say and let's me listen and learn all the more.

It's just when I read the article Boyd Allen linked and came across what appeared to be the old 'Magic Bullet' theory which killed Kennedy, my eyebrows suddenly raised up with stark shock and interest. I will likely start another thread regarding that, but after this one seems to have settled down.
 
Long Trang said:
An example of this is we have water jet cutters that can literally cut through solid steel! So, if water can do that, what can copper do?

Long Trang,

Sorry, I think this need to be corrected: In 'water jet' cutting, water is only the carrier and does prtform cuting only for soft materials (textiles for isntance). When it is question of metal, it is only the abarasive added with water who ensure the cutting function.

To take an other example, as the abrasive carried by water jet wears the nozzles very fast, and as pressures are comparable to those developped in firing, one can wonder the abrasives generated by combustion and carried by gases as fluid can have a comparative wear effect on the nozzle constituted by the throat, be it syerile or not ?.
R.G.C
 
Apakesha wrote: "Correct me if I'm wrong but water alone does not cut steel in water jet cutting, It is the garnet or abrasive that is added to the high pressure water stream that cuts the steel."

I contradicted Apakesha and stated how I learned about water jet cutting in a welding course and that the garnet is used to help cut deeper and faster through steel and that water alone is capable of cutting through steel. I did some internet checking and found Apakesha is indeed correct. My apologies, Apakesha, you were right all along and I stand corrected. :-[

Thanks Robert, for causing me to investigate and discover my misinformation.
In regards to your last statement and it appears to be in form of a question, trying to ascertain your exact meaning/question. I'm thinking... you're getting at the "abrasives generated by combustion and carried by gases" would wear out the throat whether the barrel is sterile or not. I believe the throat would be subjected to erosion no matter what condition the barrel is in. I never understood it to have abrasives carried by gases that wear the throat as-so-much as the intense heat and pressure. The throat is the area where those two factors are the highest and the rifling begins there, their edges are vulnerable and burn away a little bit at a time with each shot.
 
Heat and pressure gradually produce a very thin "case hardened" layer where they are at their highest values. This layer is too thin and brittle to survive the normal expansion under pressure that happens when a rifle is fired, and so it cracks. These cracks are enlarged and eroded by the actions of hot, high velocity combustion gasses, and particles, becoming the classic "mud flats" or "alligatoring". The surface finish eventually becomes rough enough that the bullet jacket material accumulation rate becomes so great that it requires more cleaning time and effort than is convenient, and at that point a barrel is usually retired, or switched to case fire forming duty. Also, it has been noted that the areas between the cracks can tilt very slightly and by doing so create a constriction at the throat that contributes to the rate of jacket fouling and may degrade bullet fit in the bore ahead of that point, reducing accuracy.
 
And it really gets ugly when firecracking becomes severe enough for tiny chunks of steel to begin ripping out of the bore, leaving the surface pockmarked. These holes then fillup with copper, the reason an increase on copper fouling is an indication ( among others ) that the barrel is done. A guy once told me after seeing his high round count AR with the borescope that since there was still rifling left in the last 12" of the barrel, it was still "good". Never mind that the bullets were keyholing and "groups" at 100 yd. were in the 8" to 12" category.
 

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