Sterile bore

[Long Trang]

Hi. Just joined the forum today after taking a look at various posts. I have to admit, I'm impressed with the maturity and the no-nonsense subject matter regarding questions and answers I've seen here. I've been to many forums and most of them are full of 'know-it-alls' who don't know as much as they let on. I see none of that here.


With that I'd like to ask a question of great importance to me. I checked the search site and was unsuccessful.

I'm into target shooting and am striving to constantly improve my shooting skills. I don't think I will ever be satisfied with my shooting skill, which is why I am contemplating the following. I own a custom .300 WM with a heavy stainless. It is a trued weapon. I WILL NOT leave the barrel dirty or fouled. After each shoot I clean the rifle meticulously within a matter of a couple of hours. I have discovered it takes 8 fouling shots for my groups to tighten. I've learned this is actually from the residue of gun oil left in the barrel interfering with the internal ballistics until it is burned off. I do dry patch after oiling the barrel and a few times again before firing, but the fliers remain. Someone suggested prior to firing, to run a patch of 91% rubbing alcohol through the bore and dry patch it to remove all residue and fire it dry. I tried this once and it worked. However, I've been told by many that firing a sterile barrel is harmful to the barrel and dramatically increases the wear to the point it may wear out in as little as 500 rounds! Others have told me there is no harm. I contacted the manufacturer and have not received a response yet.

Can anyone tell me with certainty if this is a bad idea? Remember, I do not believe leaving my rifle dirty (fouled) is beneficial (no different than leaving any other piece of mechanical equipment dirty) and would rather have to fire a few fouling shots before resorting to storing a dirty rifle.

Thanks in advance.
Chuck.

 

[NorCalMikie]

Chuck: First off, welcome to the Forum. Lots of "real good" information available here from some pretty sharp shooters.
I've seen some of the guys run up to 100+ rounds through their barrels at a match "without" cleaning with no Ill effects.
If you "clean it" you need to get the barrel "re coated" to get the accuracy back. Cleaning is one thing but "sterile" is something else all together. If it's "steriel", it has to be seasoned each and every time so it will shoot again. Like you mentioned, 8 shots to get it back to shooting again? That should tell you something. Patching out the burnt powder is one thing but going down to bare metal is defeating the purpous. They "barrels" shoot better fouled. I'am no expert but I've seen it happen so I make it a point "not" to get my barrels "squeaky clean". And a "good" barrel won't copper up like some others of lesser quality so cleaning "that much" isn't really needed. Cleaning is one thing but IMHO, pulling the trigger is time better well spent. JMHO, Mike.

 

[fdshuster]

Chuck: As verified with my borescope, I've taken my barrels down to bare metal clean & they ( I'm talking about Bartlein, Krieger, etc. ) will require anywhere from 10 to 15 shots fired before they settle down. So, for that reason alone I don't care about squeeky clean, I just want to keep the copper & carbon under control, and I monitor the degree of cleaning required with the borescope. As far as drying out the bore after cleaning I have been using the mops, but with a layer of paper towell tightly wrapped around the mop & it does an excellent job of completely drying out the bore without getting the mop dirty in a short time. Some use brake cleaner as a final application & it will dry out the bore, but unless your patch is large enough to fill the all important chamber, you may leave some solvent in the chamber, and that will result in hard bolt lift for the first 2 or 3 rounds fired, so be sure to keep the chamber dry. If not intending to use the rifle(s) for an extended period of time ( over the Winter), I will apply a light coating of Kroil, being sure to dry patch it out before firing. Just some of the "things" that work for me.

 

[Long Trang]

Ok. Mike, Thanx for the speedy reply. I think I may have misinterpretted my statement about the first 8 rounds. Those 8 rounds (fliers) are the first 8 rounds being fired from a clean but oiled bore. It was when I tried the alcohol to strip the bore of everything, did my first and following shots come out on the mark. Like I said, the alcohol treatment worked. I understand your point about 'seasoning' the barrel. Not to argue or dispute, but isn't 'seasoning' a metallurgical aspect that people typically associate with 'breaking in'? I know many people disagree with breaking in, but, correct me if I'm wrong, but the metallurgical aspect of the bore is bound to be set within the first 20-30 rounds. I'm no expert either, but wouldn't that mean that the fouling carbon 'recoating' serves a different purpose? If so, I'd imagine it serves to provide a barrier between the bullet jacket and the surface of the bore. And I agree with you regarding a 'good' barrel compared to a standard one won't copper up. Maybe you can help me in this regard..about cleaning. I was under the impression that the carbon (although not corrosive..but, modern day primers do, in fact, give off a bit of corrosive properties) is a bit abrasive and I've always learned to keep cars, lawnmowers, tools, etc..clean. When I bought my firearms, they were delivered clean, they were designed and built clean. How does carbon fouling help and why does it not harm the barrel when stored? I'm not asking this to dispute, I am legitimately asking those two questions because I truly want to learn the how and the why of the matter. I spent a lot of $$$ on this rifle and I'm paranoid of damaging it. Just want to be 101% certain what I do is beneficial.
Once again, thanks Mike. BTW....trigger time is time better well spent.

fdshuster: Thanx 2 U2 for the speedy reply. I like the borescope idea and I've been considering getting one for some time now. You said you've taken your barrells down to the bare metal and it took 10-15 shots to settle them down. NCM above mentioned the same thing. Why would my barrel act opposite? It's a Shilen Stainless, if that matters any.
I also like your mop idea. I always use a bore guide and clean with the rifle upside down with the muzzle lower than the stock to avoid seepage into the chamber or action.
Thanks again fdshuster.

My initial question remains. I need to know if alcohol stripping the bore and firing it will damage the bore or cause accelerated wear.

I want to learn about 'fouling' my barrel, but I need proof that it will not rot my bore before I try it.

 

[NorCalMikie]

Again, let me say "I'am no expert". I'am just going be my experience. If the barrel gets "too clean" you end up starting from scratch every time. I know there's a lot of guys on here that are a lot more qualified to answer with a more detailed reply.
An oiled patch leaves some lube on the metal surface. It acts as a barrier between bullet and bore. My guess is the leftover carbon/ burnt powder acts the same way. You remove that and you've lost the lube? All I know is it works best that way. When the bullets are going in the same hole (or real close ), I won't mess with a good thing. Real interested to see what the "more qualified" have to say.

 

[fdshuster]

Chuck: I'm certainly far from an expert, just know what works for me, but please clear up a question. When they said "firing a sterile barrel is harmful", what did they mean by "sterile"? If they meant a clean barrel, then I guess we should never clean our barrels. If they meant dry, then is the barrel supposed to be wet down with solvent before firing each shot? This sounds like some of the off-the-wall comments that are made without any backup or proof. Kind of like the " I have a Winchester model 94 30-30 that will shoot groups the size of a dime at 100 yards". If someone tells me that a particular product (alcohol) or cleaning method will harm the barrel, my response to them is "Proove it"! Regarding carbon. It's my understanding that it's a result of the burning powder, mainly the coatings that are put on the surface to control the burn rate, the reason some powders are dirtier than others. Carbon left to build up in the bore has been known to raise pressures & if severe enough will result in blown primers, hard bolt lift, etc. "The Benchrest Shooting Primer", published by "Precision Shooting" has a very informative article beginning on page 211 related to clean vs dirty & in every instance they relate it to the type of powder used, no mention of primers. The information in this & other reputable publications far outweighs any "range talk" that I might hear.

 

[Long Trang]

fdshuster, Them saying 'firing a sterile barrel is harmful' meaning that I stripped the barrel of all carbon, copper...everything, which is what I do when I clean. Then when I go to the range, I swab the bore with alcohol to remove all miniscule traces of gun oil then dry patch all the alcohol out...all that remains is the bare metal of the bore. They claim when I fire a jacketed bullet through that bore, the high heat and extreme pressure of that bullet zipping through at 3000 fps tears up the rifling because their is neither A: no oil to 'lubricate' the barrel or B: no carbon fouling to lubricate the barrel. Essentially, it appears to me, they are talking about it is imperative to have something between the bullet and the bore in order to prevent stripping the bore to the point of being useless after....say...500 shots. Bare metal on metal is harmful to my barrel, they're saying.
The reason I tend to disagree with this is that lead and copper is a far softer metal than steel, even softer stainless. However, metallurgy tends to 'bend the rules' when velocity gets involved. An example of this is we have water jet cutters that can literally cut through solid steel! So, if water can do that, what can copper do?
I've contacted gunsmiths across the nation and I can't get a straight answer. It appears nobody knows about this. I'm looking for proof (as you indicated) and to the 'hows' and the 'whys' of the dynamics of the internal operations of taking such action. I really have no problem leaving my barrel fouled...provided I am presented with 'proof' that it will not harm my bore being stored that way. You mentioned "The Benchrest Shooting Primer" and 'Prescision Shooting'. That is an example of what I'm looking for, or at least a possible source. I'll have to read it and see for myself. I keep hearing people say 'It works for me', and that's cool. But, I don't want to do something because it simply 'works', hence why I've decided to cease this alcohol stripping of the barrel until I find it's safe. Sometimes when something works, it isn't always the best in the long run.
I hope that shed some light on my question. Thanx again.

 

[apakesha]

An example of this is we have water jet cutters that can literally cut through solid steel! So, if water can do that, what can copper do?

Correct me if I'm wrong but water alone does not cut steel in water jet cutting, It is the garnet or abrasive that is added to the high pressure water stream that cuts the steel.

 

[fdshuster]

Chuck: O.K., I have a better understanding now, and thanks for taking the time to respond. In "A" we all pretty much agree that firing a lubricated bore will result in some very poor groups, and since the bore will only be "lubricated" for the first few rounds, then that too has to have an effect on where the bullets will impact. I don't believe any of the group shooters/competitors at Kelbly's Super Shoot each Spring is "lubricating" their bores between strings or courses of fire. Cleaning , yes, but certainly not coating with any type of liquid, then firing for group, they being virtually all-in-one. And in "B" we can agree that leaving a little carbon (and copper for that matter) fouling in the bore does not effect accuracy, but to someones claim that to remove it all will cause damage to the barrel since it will "wear faster", would have me saying, "Prove it". By all means, obtain a copy of "The Benchrest Shooting Primer", 420 pages of excellent information from the best, most experienced competitive shooters in the country, at a cost of approx. $20, a bargain. Shoot, use and enjoy your barrel/rifle, develop a good cleaning routine ( it will become obvious what works and what does not), and realize that eventually the barrel will have to be replaced, sooner or later, depending on the cartridge, 6.5 x 284 (sooner) or 223 Rem. (later), for example.

 

[Erik Cortina]

I run a patch saturated with alcohol through my bore after I'm done cleaning to get everything out of there. My last 284 Shehane barrel went 2,200 rounds before I pulled it off. So I don't think it hurts anything.

Oh, and cleaning is overrated. I clean about every 150-200 rounds even if it doesn't need it! ;D

 

[fdshuster]

Eric: And I've often used Brake Cleaner. Two different solvents get the same job done.

 

[Long Trang]

WOW!!! Looks like I've started a snowball rolling down a steep hill. LOL
I believe in responding to all who took the time to respond to me. Manners, ya know.

Ok. LE Hanson, To your first sentence: yes. I've come to understand that, even though a bore is oiled and protected from the elements in the atmosphere, the fouling can errode and/or pit the bore over time. This may be incorrect and I truly hope it is. I learned how to shoot long range and care for firearms during my enlistment in the Marine Corps. I admit the Marines may be a little overzealous regarding their methods of protocol, nevertheless, it is the way I have learned to take as 'gospel' especially when I'm caring for 'my baby'.
In regards to "I fire one fouling shot and then begin my group shooting", I understand and wholeheartedly agree with that method. Unfortunately, the style and purpose of my shooting is similar to sniping. I want to be able to prep my rifle for the first cold bore shot to be dead on my zero without having to 'pre-fire'.
BTW, I reside in an arid climate of the Inland Empire of SoCal (Ducking for cover!) so environmental conditions should not pose much of a problem.
I also agree with your last statement...I am getting good advice from the posters here. I just need to apply only certain aspects to my method or purpose of my particular style of shooting.
Thanks LE Hanson.

Apakesha: I learned about water jet cutting from my welding course in which got me certified. Water jet cutting initially was used by butchers to cut up chickens. You are partially correct in that a type of garnet is mixed in with the water. But, the garnet helps speed up the cutting process and allows thicker sections of steel to be cut. High pressure water alone is capable of cutting through steel.

fdshuster: Thank you for recommending 'The Benchrest Shooting Primer'. I will find and purchase that book. Like I said, (and as you and I seem to repeat the same phrase: "Prove it") I need to find hard evidence or someone who can realistically explain and convince me from what little I have learned in life that what I'm trying is indeed safe. You and I appear to be on the same page regarding this one. Now, thanks to you, I have a bonefide resource to rely on.
I do intend to shoot and enjoy, I just want to do it where I can have the barrel last a reasonable amount of time. Remember, some may consider me 'paranoid', but at least my gear is still functional.
On another note, I was talking with my old man (father) earlier about this one and we thought about using powdered graphite for that first dry shot. Don't know if it's a valid idea, but it is a possible alternative. What do ya think?
Thanks again brother!

Erik: It's good to hear a fellow shooter who uses this method and hasn't had any problems to report. Not to question you, and maybe I should know better, but shouldn't a Shilen last longer than 2200 rounds?
Oh, just noticed your credentials on your signature. Lapua Team USA. Were you using this barrel for comps, that is why you pulled it after 2200?

Thanks again to everyone who took the time to post and help.

 

[Long Trang]

You all remember that 'V8' commercial? *smacking myself in the forehead*

Just thought of this. If I was to go to the range with a cleaned, but lightly oiled barrel, fire one well aimed shot at one target. Then clean the barrel, oil it and dry patch so that it is identicle to the first shot. On a second target, fire a well aimed shot and repeat the process three more times, my guess would be the shots would have identical trajectories, the POI's would be the same in relation to my POA. The barrel condition being consistant should lead to consistant shots. The problem I was having with the 1st 8 fouling shots was the remaining trace of oil was being burned away with each shot, leaving differing conditions shot to shot, until the oil was gone and I had developed adequate fouling to smooth the bore... only then did my groups tighten up. This method, if my experiment pays off, I can likewise compare identicle shots with consistent 2nd, then 3rd and so forth, each time logging exactly where subsequent shots hit. Then I'll be able to adjust my POA in relation to the previously noted shots for future shooting.

What are your thoughts?

 

[Erik Cortina]

Yes, I was using that barrel in competition. The reason I use alcohol is because in some matches we only get two sighters so I need the shots to be in the group ASAP... it works!

The barrel brand is not indicative of how long a barrel will last. The way a barrel is used is what dictates barrel life. I use mine in F-Class where we shoot 25 shots in about 10-20 minutes depending on conditions and pit service. If I was using that barrel for hunting, it would last a lot longer than that.

 

[mikecr]

Long Trang, there is a process that occurs in bores that most people with borescopes have probably seen before. It starts out as a dry lake bed pattern extending down a bore from the throat further & further with shot count. These are like scabs that bullets and high flowing powder/carbon particles can pick at. The carbon impinges itself into every nook of it, lifting the surface, and shots begin to take chunks/flakes of it away. I think someone coined it gator-back at that point. This can abrade bullet jackets, and a constriction of it(like a carbon ring) swages bullets, leaving them looser fitting the rest of the way, killing accuracy, often permanently. Oh yeah, and heat amplifies it..
So to extend the life of a bore(with cleaning), you need to manage carbon -while not overexposing lake-bed scabs.

Truly taking a bore to exposed metal after every use may or may not be harmful(depending on how), but always shooting it in that condition is probably a bad idea.
I know that carbon build-up must be managed to keep peak accuracy, and if it isn't addressed frequently it builds to a point where removing it is damaging to a bore(it's tougher than steel).
I take the approach of pre-filling, or smooting over, of the lake-bed/pores with a dry pre-fouling that is not copper or left over residue(potentially corrosive).
I think I'm doing what you want to do using tunsten(WS2), as my first cold shot is always with any cold shots to follow. Copper fouling is also eliminated as a factor, and so is solvent/oil migrating to a chamber. I can go many rounds between cleanings, but I typically don't.

This, from another post somewhere else:
- I clean my guns with them hanging off a step ladder, barrel pointed down, and I don't hold back on cleaning a bit.
- Then I dry the bore out with a washing(literally) of the best alcohol I can get my hands on. Right now, it's anhydrous 'Pure Ethanol'. I use a clean mop for this, short stroking while pumping alcohol in with a squirt bottle 90deg nozzle through the ejection port(no guide). It pours out the muzzle into a pan.
- Then I let it dry about ~1hr and verify so with a dry patch. Sometimes I blow dry it.
- Then I insert to the throat a highly technical prefouling guide(HTPG) /flared piece of automotive gas line. And lay a shop towel over the stock.
- Then I pull out a squishy plastic tube within which is dry WS2 coated BBs and a mop with it's threads pointed up, so that I can hold the mop(by squeezing the tube) while screwing my rod onto it.
- Then I run the WS2 mop through the bore ~10 full strokes ending with the mop out the muzzle.
- Then I carefully insert the mop(while at the muzzle) into that squishy tube and unscrew the rod from it.
- Then I drop ~1/8pinch of new WS2 into the squishy tube, put the lid on it & shake before storing(ready for next use).
- Then I push 3 dry patches through the HTPG all the way out the muzzle. The third patch would have light streaking only. I hit it with a little alcohol and wipe off the muzzle.

My bullets are also WS2 dry coated, and after seated I give em a wipe with a shop towel that was saturated with turtle wax and dried(years ago).
I store all my guns clean, dry, & prefouled this way (even handguns).

 

[hepburn45110]

I've read through this thread a couple of times. I didn't really realize you could make cleaning a rilfe so complicated. First of all, I'M NOT HANGIN' MY THIRTY-FIVE HUNDRED RIFLE OFF A STEP LADDER. THAT'S WHAT CRADLES ARE FOR. Use a good bore cleaner on a patch and jag, paying attention to the throat to remove the carbon ring just ahead of the the chamber. Wet patch it until the patch comes clean. Dry patch the bore and chamber dry. If it is a stainless barrel, use any common corrosion inhibitor as a final treatment before storing. If its a chrome moly barrel, oil it before you store it. When you get to the range, dry patch it, clean the chamber and put the rifle to work. The point of impact may move during the first few shots but if your cleaning procedure is consistant you should know where the first shot will go if you've spent enough time with the rifle. As for barrel life, you will lose the throat long before the the bore wears out. Throat errosion has little to do with cleaning proceedures unless you just don't bother cleaning in the first place.

 

[Long Trang]

mikecr, I've read about this 'lake-bed scabbing' you're talking about. At the time wasn't sure if it was real or another BS line someone was trying to sell. But from reading what you just posted, I'm a believer. You managed to explain how it happens and what causes it. I've heard it looks like 'cracks' in the surface of the bore. Scary stuff!

In regards to your second paragraph, I won't be firing each shot with a clean and dry bore. After the first shot there will be some carbon fouling in the bore. As I said in an earlier post, I'm not going to pursue firing dry and sterile until I verify it is safe to do so. I'm searching for viable options that would suffice better such as the graphite idea (won't try until proven safe and functional, of course) or merely logging consistent fouling shots to ascertain a consistent pattern, then holding for those specific shots each time I initiate fire.
Thanks for your valuable and interesting input.

hepburn45110, I don't think of my method of cleaning my rifle complicated. In addition to cleaning my bore, I also use a lug recess cleaning tool, use white lithium grease on the lugs of the bolt to prevent galling, use a bore guide to prevent nicking the throat with my cleaning rod and preventing any seepage from solvent back into the chamber or action. If you're referring to the excerpts mikecr posted from another poster, I agree. I sure as sh*t would never hang my target rifle from a step ladder to clean either. I think some people should not own firearms LOL. Essnentially, the way you described to clean a rifle is exactly what I do.
In regards to throat errosion, I load my rounds at a mediocre velocity, not the lowest and certainly not the highest. .300 WM's are known to be potential barrel burners and erode the throat quickly with near max loads, firing with hot barrels, etc. I try to avoid that. When I reach a stage of where I'm shooting ELR, then I'll worry about loading the extra charge and stress the throat. In addition, I've learned a reloader can seat his/her bullets out a little farther when a throat has eroded to compensate, shortening that jump and regain their accuracy once again. This can be done several times.

Erik: I agree with you about the life expectancy of a barrel; how it's used and cared for determines it's longevity. However, I've also learned quality barrels typically last longer and operate better than standard factory barrels. Of course, if a barrel is misused, neglected or fired hot it will determine how long it will retain its accuracy.
I'm glad about your report the alcohol works and doesn't harm the barrel. Thank you!

 

[mikecr]

Maybe I'm a madman...

 

[mikecr]

An example of my meanin

 

[BoydAllen]

Down in the middle of this piece, with a yellow background, is a section on rifle cleaning. The fellow that wrote it knows what he is talking about. I suggest that the whole article is worth reading ...twice.
http://www.accurateshooter.com/guns-of-week/gunweek053/