Starting out with F-TR class. Which rifle to shoot?

[DRNewcomb]

OK. Here's the situation. The nearest 600/1000 yard range no longer holds NMC competitions. They do hold F-Class matches. I've been considering giving it a try. My problem is that my gear is all built for shooting NMC. I really don't want to sink a bundle into this, at least until I decide if I like it or not. What I've got (other than an '03 Springfield ) is a "Space Gun" in 5.56, a Mod 70 in .308 and an old Burris 12x scope. The "Space Gun" has a 1:8 twist barrel and I think the Mod 70 is 1:10, if I recall correctly. I just had Frank White (who built the gun) add about 25 MOA of elevation to the Space Gun's sight base, so that my old Burris scope (which has a total of about 55 MOA elevation) can get on the paper at 1000 yards. I've also shimmed the rear scope base of the Mod 70 for about the same elevation gain. I bought a Harris bipod and have ordered a rear shooting bag.

Frank and I were discussing all this and he was pretty doubtful about shooting .223 at 1000, particularly since 1:8 is only marginally stable for some of the really heavy bullets. I've shot the Mod 70 at 1000 before and managed to keep it on the paper. One time I used the scope and had to hold on a tree limb over the target because the scope didn't have enough elevation (before shimming). The next time I used iron sights. This was all shooting unsupported prone. I'm pretty sure the Mod 70 will do OK with 175-180 gn bullets.

I'm considering which gun to start working up loads for and where to start. I've got a bunch of Molly coated Sierra 80 gns. and a collection of .308 bullets ranging from Sierra 168s to Lapua 185s. Suggestions?

 

[Boisblancboy]

If it were me I think you should use the .308. Your twist in the barrel will stabilize just about any bullet in that cal. provided you have the freebore for some of the highest grain bullet.

What barrel contour? Length? How about your scope?

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

In my opinion, it's all about the barrel.

If your spacegun has a rather thick barrel and your Mod 70 has a thin hunting barrel, I would say go with the spacegun. There is no problem getting to 1000 yards with 80grain bullets out of your 1:8 twist; I did it for years.

 

[eric32]

What make is the space gun?

if its a Remington a pre-fit barrel in 308 or 223 might be what you need.

 

[DRNewcomb]

In my opinion, it's all about the barrel.

If your spacegun has a rather thick barrel and your Mod 70 has a thin hunting barrel, I would say go with the spacegun. There is no problem getting to 1000 yards with 80grain bullets out of your 1:8 twist; I did it for years.

Sorry if I didn't provide enough information. The Mod 70 is a post-'68 target model with a 25" Winchester target barrel that's 0.874" at the muzzle. The crown is rebated about 1/8". I still have not rechecked the twist on that barrel but it looks to be pretty steep. The Space Gun has a 24" Douglas 1:8" twist. The bolt gun would certainly be more amenable to single loading.

 

[DRNewcomb]

What make is the space gun?

if its a Remington a pre-fit barrel in 308 or 223 might be what you need.

It's a composite gun built by Compass Lake Engineering. One of their early ones from back before there was such a thing as a "flat top" receiver. Frank milled off the carry handle and mounted his own design ridge that duplicates the diameter of a Mod 70 receiver so that the gun could use Mod 70 sight bases, etc. The barrel is from an very early batch of Douglas 1:8" twist .223" barrels.

 

[XTR]

I've read that Laurie has shot a 223 at 1000 yard ranges over in Great Britain, the only other long range 223 shooter I know of is a sling and irons guy that I shoot with in Oak Ridge. I know Randy shoots the Berger 90s with good results but his rifle is throated for them.

I'm sure that you can load up 80s and get a feel for things and decide if you really want to go this route.

If you can get the 308 up to scratch with the scope mounted then that's probably the best route, any of the bullets in the 175+ class will get you out to 1000.

Come out, give it a whirl with either (or both) and see if you like it. If you do you may decide you want to go for a more dedicated setup, in which case either could be modded into a dedicated F class rifle.

 

[TonyR]

I saw Laurie shoot what he calls "The Mouse Gun" at over 1000 yards at Blair Atholl, and it held its own with some world class F-T/R rifles. The Mouse Gun project is well documented here in Laurie's posts and I think they did a write-up in the Daily Bulletin as well. A quick search should turn up the details. As I recall, the rifle was a bolt gun with a 1:7 twist barrel to stabilize the 90 gr Berger VLDs. In any event, Laurie is a fine gentleman and I am sure he will tell you whatever you want to know if you PM to "Laurie" on this site.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

You make it sound like it's a big deal; it's not.

I started in F-TR with a tricked out AR-15 sporting a 26 inch Krieger barrel, shooting 80gr JLKs and reached SharpShooter in LR all at 1000 yards. The 80gr SMK or JLK have the same BC and trajectory as the 175SMK. We have a couple of people at the club still competing with .223 at LR and they do very well, thank you very much.

 

[TonyR]

Here is a link that includes a pic of Laurie shooting the Mouse Gun at Blair Atholl:
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2011/07/scots-top-american-f-tr-all-stars-at-blair-atholl-on-4th-of-july/
He shot it out to 1100 yards.

 

[eric32]

with all the information you posted i think the the Mod 70 in 308win or the space gun will be suited to your needs as a good start point. But what are you going to be doing for a scope? or are you going to try irons?

 

[DRNewcomb]

with all the information you posted i think the the Mod 70 in 308win or the space gun will be suited to your needs as a good start point. But what are you going to be doing for a scope? or are you going to try irons?

As I stated in my first post, I have an old Burris 12x, 1/2' dot target scope. And I don't have a $1000 to go buy a fancy new scope. The first time I tried shooting this scope at 1000 yds, many years ago, I ended up holding on a tree limb above the target because the scope didn't have enough elevation. Recently I shimmed the rear scope base of the Mod 70 and had Frank White put 25 MOA of elevation in the base of the Space Gun. I need to get them back out to the local range to get them sighted in at 100 yds and work from there.

There's nothing wrong with shooting irons but as an old optician once told me, "You have the worst eyes possible to do what you do for fun." My eyes haven't gotten any better since then. Frank showed me his front sight which is made by Wayne Foishee (sp) and has a lens in the hood, which makes a slight focusing correction so that both the front aperture and the target are in focus. I may be getting one of those after the bank account recharges a little.

Last night I had a chat with Joe C. from Pennsylvania who has done a lot of work with Bartlein gain-twist barrels shooting .224 90 gn bullets at 1000 yds. (Frank gave me his number.) He encouraged me to shoot the .223 but made the point that I needed to get the MV for 80 gn Sierras up into the 2770 range and assured me that he's loaded them hotter than that. (My load to do that is 25.5 gn of VV N550.)

I'm kind of leaning in that direction as I'm a bit of a wimp and shooting 80 gn bullets is less bruising than shooting those 185 gn .308 bullets.

Now I just have to talk this up with my old shooting buddies and put together a team.

 

[Va Jim]

You could give Ray Bowman a call at Precision Rifle and Tool. HE can do any work you need on your M70 and get it to shoot out to 1000 yds. Va Jim

 

[eric32]

by no means was i suggesting that you go out and spend 1k on a new scope many of the guys on here have made do with 36X and 24X weaver scope. I tried to use a 10X at 1k yards before it can be done but its more of hold on the black and send it down range type of deal.

Like i mention, you can get a fixed scope for a very reasonable price i believe weavers and the S2 sightron's are great bargains

with starting with the 22 cal 80gr you are going to very good at reading the wind when you get a couple of matches under your belt. And the thought of shooting the 60+ rounds is a whole lot easier than the heavy 30 calls. its also a plus for recoil and being able to stay on target

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

Out of my 26 inch 1:7.7 Krieger, I was pushing 80gr JLKs at about 2850 with 25 gr of Varget in a Winchester case with a 7 1/2 Rem primer. This was out of an AR-15 topped with a 36X Weaver scope. I have a friend who shoots 80gr Bergers at 3000FPS out of his 30 inch bolt.

The point is that you do not have to spend lots of money to get into the game. As you get better, you will be able to identify what aspect of the hardware you need to improve or upgrade, but the important thing is that you will be shooting and learning right away.