Stainless steel media+clean brass necks=????

[7stubby]

I have been using stainless media to clean my brass for the last year and half. I currently dont do anything to the inside of the necks to lube them, like I read some people do.
My question is for people using stainless media to clean their brass, are you using a dry neck lube, like the redding dry neck lube, to lube the inside of your necks before seating your bullets?
Any thoughts would greatly be appreciated. And I have done a search on this site but cant pull anything up pertaining to this.

 

[Jdne5b]

I'm also curious about this. Currently, I do not use anything on the necks after stainless tumbling. I do tumble the brass in dry walnut after sizing, so they are a little dusty when I charge with powder and seat bullets. I'm not sure if it's enough dust to act as a lube or not.

Deprime
Stainless Tumble
Anneal
FL-Size
Walnut Tumble
Prime
Load

 

[skiutah02]

Add me to the list of interested people. I've just started a new procedure of just wiping the outside fired case with a clean rag, FL sizing (0.001-0.002 bump and bushing die on neck reducing less than 0.005 on neck) with NO free-floating carbide expanding ball), wiping off the lube with towel, chamfer neck, prime, load.

I do tumble after the third firing just before annealing. Before did as above except no walnut step and I did a quick SS tumble after sizing to remove the lube. I did have good success with this method also.

Two reasons I have started doing the new non-SS tumble method is that 1) several skilled shooters told me they leave C in the neck, and 2) my new barrel/bullet/load requires 0.003 neck tension for accuracy and I cannot get that with the carbide expanding ball without grinding on it.

I did recently do a quick 30-shot test of with/without the CEB and the runout was higher using the CEB. (note I do not turn necks (yet))

With CEB 3 rounds < 0.001 RO, 9 rounds <0.002 ro, and 3 < 0.003 ro
Without CEB 8 rounds < 0.001 ro, 7 rounds < 0.015
The accuracy even at 100 was a bit better with the non-ceb load in 3x 5 shots

Drew

 

[jimcasey01]

I push my case mouths down into a small container with lead shot and graphite, about 1/2" deep. I do about 4 down and up motions, wipe the outside of the case, and prepare to fill with powder. Definitely makes bullet seating easier.

 

[chkunz]

I have done a lot of loading for the M14 over the years and have never lubed the inside of the necks for bullet seating. The accuracy requirements for the M14 shooting the National Match Course is not as big a consideration as for some of the other shooting sports, they give you a big target. It seems logical to me that it might be a small positive factor concerning accuracy for some applications but I would not do it unless I could find someone who had adequate data to say it helps. "Better is the mortal enemy of good enough."

 

[William]

I started using the graphite lube, a short time after I started cleaning with SS pins. The brass is so clean that you can feel the increased bullet seating resistance. I think it has a lot to do with the Lemi-shine (citric acids) etching/cleaning the surface of the brass.

William

 

[jlow]

One thing to keep in mind when using SS media is you don't have to get the brass squeaky clean inside and out. The most important spot is the primer pockets. Limit your cleaning to a period long enough to do this to preserve that carbon on the inside of the neck. I use 10 pounds of pins and with their increased cleaning power, I don't run my cycles for more than 1 hour.

Reducing run time makes sense as it makes the job easier and it also reduce your chance of neck peening.

 

[LHSmith]

IME I don't see any correlation to having clean primer pockets and accuracy....for that matter, I see no upside to subjecting brass to shot peening and washing with acidic compounds. Many short range BR competitors never clean primer pockets and those that do use a tool specific to the job. Over the winter I tried the ss pin cleaning method on my PPC brass and even with using graphite on the resultant clean necks, I couldn't achieve consistent NT ( and accuracy) until I got carbon back in the neck ID. Too many downsides with ss pins....you MUST physically check inside cases for remnant pins, cases must be thoroughly dried, you MUST develop some form of neck lubrication which could cause powder, primer contamination. Six (6) additional operations to replace the one (1) of having to clean out primer pockets (which many feel isn't even necessary - and they got the Precision Shooters Jackets and HOF points to prove it).
SS pin cleaning : BTDT, No thanks

 

[Bayou]

I also use graphite mixed with birdshot to dip the necks of rifle cases in after FL sizing and trimming. I find this is needed most with flat tail bullets. Boat tail bullets tend to insert easier even without graphite lube.

That's my experience, at least....


Bayou

 

[amlevin]

I shoot a couple times a week with a BR Shooter who is a "case cleanliness freak". Even to the point of using his "Hawkeye" to see how clean they get after they've been in the ultrasonic cleaner for half an hour and then swabbed out with q-tips.

He uses absolutely no lube in any part of his process. Necks are sized using Redding TiN bushings and then bullets seated in these "ultra clean necks".

He'll then proceed to put bullet after bullet into the same hole. Lack of lube doesn't seem to harm accuracy for him.

 

[LHSmith]

That's odd, his regimen is counter to that of any current competitor's that I know....we FLS every time. We are talking about someone who shoots competition and wins something at least once in a while? A good group or two witnessed at a club practice session is not necessarily a great indicator of how well someone does in a day of competition.

 

[snakepit]

This is a posting I made recently on the 6BR Forum.

Last week I was loading some 6BR 105 Hybrids to .001 neck tension. The brass had been fired 6 times and this was the second time since they had been annealed and like you said the bullets seated like smooth butter. I then decided to load 10 new pieces of brass. I prepared them like I always do new brass but when I seated the bullets I was surprised at the force it took to seat the bullets to .001. I ended up seating 5 rounds and it never got any easier. Then I realized that I had not lubed the insides of the necks of the new brass with the Imperial Application Media with Dry Neck Lube I always use. I then decided to load the other 5 new cases but this time I lubed the inside of the necks and the bullets seated very smoothly. I wanted to see the difference between these two groups of new brass so I fired them when I went to the range the next day. At 600 yds the 5 new brass rounds with no inside neck lubed measured about 3" wide and 1" vertical and the 5 new brass rounds with lube in the necks measured about 1 3/4 wide and 1" vertical. Another day and another lesson learned.

 

[BCoates]

I use SS media to clean my brass after sizing. After I load the powder, I dip the base of the bullet up to the ogive into the Redding dry lube a few times before seating. It is easier for me to dip the bullets vs. the case mouths. I believe it works just as well to dip the base of the bullet and uses less lube.

 

[amlevin]

We are talking about someone who shoots competition and wins something at least once in a while?

No, we are talking about an old established shooter that has "owned" just about every BR title in our region over the last years. Has shot so many "Zero's" in his career that for excitement he "baits" his targets with bits of insect attracting "stuff" so he can shoot the flies and make "splatter marks" on his targets.

He's won so many matches that he's now taken to tossing one out in the 8-9 ring in score matches just to let someone else win for a change.

For "sizing", he uses a modified Ideal Hand Tool for neck sizing. He's modified it to accept modified bushings and he only neck sizes, period. Some of his cases have over 60 "firings" on them, depending on the caliber.

For those who might have a clue, his first name is "Ted".

 

[LHSmith]

Before getting into competitive shooting, I too would watch in awe at local clubs as veteran BR competitors, many that held world records (at the time) would shoot amazingly small groups, or clean a Score target with 5 x's. It wasn't until I started to compete, that it became evident that in order to excel in the game that it takes more than shooting a tiny group (a "screamer") or nailing 1 or 2 five X score targets in a row. It all comes down to who makes the least bench mistakes, dopes the conditions the best, and maintains their rifles tune at the end of the day after 5 record targets of 5 shot groups ( Group) or 5 record targets of 5 bulls each (Score).
My point to all this is that using reloading techniques that were prominent 20 years ago will seriously handicap a competitor in today's registered matches were winning group agg's have shrunk considerably and winning " X" counts have went from the teens to the mid 20's ( 25 = a perfect target before counting wipeouts as a tiebreaker....the "X" being a 1/16" moa dot, a wipeout being the entire dot is taken out.) FWIW the record @ 100 yds. is 250/25X/ 21 wipeouts...which I witnessed).
From my experience and what I know other competitors do, loading without any neck lubrication ( residual carbon being the best) does not offer the consistency in accuracy required to win registered matches and tournaments.
I assume most of us on this particular site, visit to gain knowledge to extract every last bit of accuracy from our loads and equipment.

 

[Joe R]

snakepit said:
This is a posting I made recently on the 6BR Forum.

Last week I was loading some 6BR 105 Hybrids to .001 neck tension. The brass had been fired 6 times and this was the second time since they had been annealed and like you said the bullets seated like smooth butter. I then decided to load 10 new pieces of brass. I prepared them like I always do new brass but when I seated the bullets I was surprised at the force it took to seat the bullets to .001. I ended up seating 5 rounds and it never got any easier. Then I realized that I had not lubed the insides of the necks of the new brass with the Imperial Application Media with Dry Neck Lube I always use. I then decided to load the other 5 new cases but this time I lubed the inside of the necks and the bullets seated very smoothly. I wanted to see the difference between these two groups of new brass so I fired them when I went to the range the next day. At 600 yds the 5 new brass rounds with no inside neck lubed measured about 3" wide and 1" vertical and the 5 new brass rounds with lube in the necks measured about 1 3/4 wide and 1" vertical. Another day and another lesson learned.

I'm also curious about this. I do not use anything on the necks after stainless tumbling.

But if one applies lube to the inside of the neck before dropping the powder it seems that the powder will either get stuck in the wet lube, or simply wipe away the dry lube as it goes through the neck. Applying a lube to the base of the bullet seems like the only viable course of action. What am I missing?

Joe

 

[Bayou]

snakepit said:
This is a posting I made recently on the 6BR Forum.

Last week I was loading some 6BR 105 Hybrids to .001 neck tension. The brass had been fired 6 times and this was the second time since they had been annealed and like you said the bullets seated like smooth butter. I then decided to load 10 new pieces of brass. I prepared them like I always do new brass but when I seated the bullets I was surprised at the force it took to seat the bullets to .001. I ended up seating 5 rounds and it never got any easier. Then I realized that I had not lubed the insides of the necks of the new brass with the Imperial Application Media with Dry Neck Lube I always use. I then decided to load the other 5 new cases but this time I lubed the inside of the necks and the bullets seated very smoothly. I wanted to see the difference between these two groups of new brass so I fired them when I went to the range the next day. At 600 yds the 5 new brass rounds with no inside neck lubed measured about 3" wide and 1" vertical and the 5 new brass rounds with lube in the necks measured about 1 3/4 wide and 1" vertical. Another day and another lesson learned.

I'm also curious about this. I do not use anything on the necks after stainless tumbling.

But if one applies lube to the inside of the neck before dropping the powder it seems that the powder will either get stuck in the wet lube, or simply wipe away the dry lube as it goes through the neck. Applying a lube to the base of the bullet seems like the only viable course of action. What am I missing?

Joe

Hi, Joe -

Hope all is well your way.

I've lubed both ways - by dipping the base of the bullet in graphite and by dipping the case neck in graphite. Both ways work well.

By dipping the neck, although the graphite is applied before the powder is dropped, the dropping powder does not "wash off" all of the graphite, and enough remains to provide good lubrication to the bullet upon insertion.

So, it's just a matter of personal preference.

Such is my experience anyway.....

All the Best -

Bayou

 

[7stubby]

I think I will start dipping the base of my bullets in the application media before seating. Can always wipe the extra off when its done.
Thanks guys.

 

[snakepit]

Although I have always done the dipping the neck in the dry media/graphite lube method I think I will try the dipping the base in the lube method. Since I always use boat tail bullets, mainly the Berger 105 Hybrids, do I need to wipe the graphite off the boat tail portion which will not touch the neck or just leave it alone? I feel that at times the powder will be touching the boat tails and maybe contaminant some of the powder. I realize that in doing the neck method some of the graphite gets brushed off into the powder so maybe it does not make a difference. Just wondering.

 

[Bayou]

Although I have always done the dipping the neck in the dry media/graphite lube method I think I will try the dipping the base in the lube method. Since I always use boat tail bullets, mainly the Berger 105 Hybrids, do I need to wipe the graphite off the boat tail portion which will not touch the neck or just leave it alone? I feel that at times the powder will be touching the boat tails and maybe contaminant some of the powder. I realize that in doing the neck method some of the graphite gets brushed off into the powder so maybe it does not make a difference. Just wondering.

As long as your lube is dry graphite, it should make no difference if some small amount of it brushes off the bullet or the neck and mixes in the powder.

On the other hand, a wet lube or a paste lube that gets mixed in with the powder could indeed cause lumping, spreading and contamination of the powder within the case. These conditions could very well affect ignition.


Bayou