Sporter Class In BR

[StephenPerry]

Sporter Class In BR
Every 10 1/2# rifle in 6PPC or better is a Sporter Class Rifle. This generally makes up 80% of the guns shot in BR today. As some have tried to remove the most populace class it is moving through the year 2006 with no changes right where it should be. A good amount of shooters by choice set up one gun for BR competition adding barrels when they choose to. With a Sporter a shooter can be competitive and win in every BR class with exception of UNL/HB 10 shot. Though one of my shooting compadres several years back won the Calif State 10 shot 100 yd with his Sporter. At San Gabriel we shoot a good amount of UNL/HB 5 shot. Most of our guys have a Rail but some not yet. See the Rails on sgbenchrest.com San Gabriel website. The rest shoot either a Sporter or HV. Rails don't guarantee a win. We have had as many as 10 aggs in the 1's at these Shoots with Sporters being 2 or 3 of those Dan Capps a winner once.
I see it useful in leaving Sporter as it is. With better scopes and great bullets from makers like Fowler, Bruno, Gentner, Bart, Euber, and many more great barrels Sporters rock the BR world. Most everybody has put more 6 PPC barrels on 10 1/2# guns than all the rest put together. A Sporter most likely will win this years Super Shoot. But there are exceptions the 22 PPC, one my favorites, in the hands of a competent shooter can win the Super Shoot where the classes are 10 1/2# & 13 1/2 # gun that allows the 22 to shoot both. Mike Ratigan is one the better known 22 competitor.
What I think is a self serving attempt by one particular Region is to remove the Sporter Class doesn't float the boat with the rest of the Country that understand their 4 Class system and enjoy their 3 Gun & 4 Gun State Championships. I know I look forward to State & Regional 3 and 4 Gun Championships. Benchrest would become fragmented if Sporter class was archived with many States and Regions working outside the control of whichever Organization if such a bold move happened. My take, things will stay the same keeping Sporter Class as is. Just the way I like it.

At San Gabriel BR I will continue to have at least 4 shoots that have Sporter class. Of course a lot of shooters shoot their Sporter in every shoot we have that's their right because Sporter is the universal class in BR.
Stephen Perry

 

[DJD58]

There seems to be in benchrest, as in other areas of life, two types of people, those who want to keep things the same and those who want to experiment with everything. In short range benchrest the light varmint and sporter are the same since 98% of the competitors shoot a 6PPC.

Some want to keep it this way and others want to make them two distinct classes.
Some ideas that have been offered are: 1)change the sporter to a class where the only rule is 10.5 lbs, 2) make the sporter be a caliber bigger than 6mm, and several other ideas.

I have heard that several good competitors think a 25BR will shoot with a 6PPC if the same design and quality bullets were available since everything else is already available.

I don't think anything will change in the two sanctioning bodies rules because the sport is so entrenched in the use of the PPC, so any experimentation will have to be on someones own efforts and any new designs will have to prove themselves in competition

 

[StephenPerry]

Sporter/LV
If you take off your experimental glasses you will see there is a class for all your experimental toys. It has always been there it is called Unlimited or HB. As far as SP & LV being joined at the hip that is from choice. LV is your traditional 22 Class along with HV. SP started with the 6mm class the others joined later.
Believe me if a better cartridge than the PPC came out people would move to it. Hasn't happened yet. You have a name instead of a serial number.
Stephen Perry

 

[DJD58]

Actually anyone can experiment in all the classes within the rules. If I had the ambition to make bullets I think I would do the 25BR thing. I would have one of the bullet die makers do a set of dies that would be a blown up version of a 52 gr 22 cal bullet to start with and see how it works.

Right now I'm a 6PPC shooter and am going to stay that way for a while. I just think there are many ways to get the results we want. the 6PPC is the easiest and for many the best.

If it wasn't for experimenters we wouldn't even have had the 219 wasp or any of the cartridges since.

 

[StephenPerry]

DCD
Your giving your age when you start talking about the 219 Donaldson Wasp. I do feel the 219 would be competitive today. If a shooter had a smith with those reamers I think with today's stocks, scopes, and triggers you could compete.Notice I didn't say barrels because I feel barrels made 30 years ago are as good as today. I know because I had a couple of them. Actually several of the before PPC cartridges shot aggs and groups competitive I see today. I see a lot of PPC aggs today in the 3's and 4's. Aggs in the 1's and 2's make up most of the aggs at San Gabriel Shoots and the other Ranges around the country. But at large Shoots like the Cactus & Super Shoot plenty of those 3 & 4 aggs show up.
Benchrest is a lot more than hold the same spot and the pull the trigger. When I'm winning I hold for 3 or 4 shots every group especially at 200 yd. Most of the rest do the same or they are losing big time. Never be afraid of the first shot wherever it goes. Gary Ocock plays this game he flips the first shot anywhere in side the black lines and makes a group out of it. He is the only I have seen do this. But Gary knows the condition he shot the first shot in and can shoot a 1 or 2 out his purposed first shot. Like I said in another post Gary is the best shooter I have shot regularly with.
Depending on what you want to do with your 25BR I would stay with you 6 PPC for registered BR. Bullets have at such a high perfection level for at least 30 years now your 25 would be belittled at a BR Shoot. I understand Fowler makes a 25 but who else. Experimenting is nice but competition isn't kind to those out of the norm.
Stephen Perry

 

[Cheechako]

Stephen

I'm here to tell you that I'm one of those who believe that Sporter/Light Varmint/Heavy Varmint should be combined or, one or two eliminated. Two guns, one limited and one unlimited, should be the maximum. When discussing the merits of maintaining the status quo you have to consider the original intent of the different classes. When they were established it was the intent that there should be 4 completely different guns. Today, no such distinction exists. In effect we shoot 2-gun competition. My philosophy is, if the conditions that prescribed the different classes has changed, so too should the classes. I never could and still can't understand the love affair some shooters have with 4-Gun competition. I no longer speak up when the subject is brought up at local, regional and national meetings because I know where it is going but it doesn't change my opinion.

As far as trying different stuff - I'm all for it. That is why I shoot Long Range BR. But as long as we continue to shoot 100 and 200 yards I don't think you'll see a mass exodus from the 6 PPC because it is what wins. And we haven't yet realized it's full potential IMHO. Until we are able to utilize that potential there is little to be gained from going to different calibers or cartridges. Now if we really do want to do some old-time experimenting with the idea that maybe there are some better combinations out there, how about eliminating the 100 yard and shoot 200/300 and maybe even 400 yards? That would sure shake things up. Shooting a PPC at 100 yards is an insult to the cartridge. I shoot it at 600 yards and it still wins me my share of fake-wood trophies. I have suggested eliminating 100 yards to some of my good shooting buddies. they always respond that they "like shooting those tiny groups" and they can't do it at 300. My response is, "Well why not shoot at 50 yards?"

Didn't mean to hijack your thread. You've started some very interesting discussions and I enjoy reading them and occasionally responding. Too bad That BR Central has sunk to it's current level.:,

Ray Meketa,Cheechako)

 

[DJD58]

Actually the 58 in my handle is the year I was born, the rest is my initials.

The wasp is a good cartridge, seeing how many times it has been reinvented such as the SM wasp, the 240 coyote and others just proves it.

I agree that many of the old designs done now with current equipment would be competitive. The .222 improved would be another one. Even the 223 Rem would be good with the new Lapua competition brass for it.

My comment on the 25 BR was about the problem with bullets mostly, as in there aren't any quality benchrest design bullets for it. They are more like low drag designs with ogives over 10 on them. If there were good BR designed bullets it would probably work too, but i'm not going to do it. I still don't want to buy dies and make bullets, it's not my idea of fun. I'm staying with the PPC.

 

[Cheechako]

DJD

You are right about the bullets. The availability of match grade bullets is what controls what we shoot. The 6 PPC would still be a crow shooting cartridge if it wasn't for all the .243 match bullets that started showing up in the 70s. I was at a 1000 yard match several years ago and one of the techs from Sierra was there. I won't mention any names but his initials are Rich Machholz. I asked him why Sierra didn't make benchrest grade 25 caliber bullets. He told me, "Order a million of them and we'll make them."

And you're also right about the old cartridges being accurate enough to be competitive. Even the slope-shouldered 30-30 will shoot given good brass, bullets, and barrels. Trouble is everyone is lazy and the 6 PPC is SO EASY to shoot. I do it too. But that's why I like LR Benchrest. If there are 50 shooters on the line there will be 35 different cartridges and 30 of them will be wildcats. HBR is beginning to narrow down it's cartridge lineup but the day is not here yet when one cartridge dominates.

Ray

 

[DJD58]

Ray, you are right about bullet making, its mostly about making a profit with most big manufacturers. While in short range BR some people want to make their own bullets to control the process and availabiity.

If someone wanted to try the 25 caliber in 100 -200 BR they will have to make the bullets themselves since there are NO typical short range BR bullets, as in 8 ogive, short length,like .900 long) and light,70 to 75 grains)that will most likely work. It would take a fair amount of work to get this going, and a demand such as what would happen if the sporter caliber rule on bore size was changed to anything over 6mm.
To me a 25 BR would be a one size larger 6PPC like a 22 waldog is a one size smaller 6PPC, although it may have a slight advantage in the wind.

I have shot some 600 yard BR and I agree there is a lot more experimentation going on there. It just depends on what the shooter thinks will work in the situation.
Dana

 

[StephenPerry]

DJD
You're dreaming. There has never been a 25 BR shot in 100-200 BR. At least that anybody talked about. Bruno had a set of 25 bullet making dies for sale last year not sure of maker the price $1500. Nobody jumped on them. Probably still has them give him a call.
Stephen Perry

 

[DJD58]

Stephen, I'm not going to make bullets, I have done production work before and it is terribly boring to me. What it would take to get me to do it is something that would be a distinct advantage and not just a curiosity.
There has been some development of the 25BR in the past but not a lot. The Precision shooting benchrest shooting primer has a article on page 349 by Bob Jourdan that was written in 1993 that recaps the work that he and a few others did, even then it was all about good bullets and the lack of them.
Actually that is a pretty interesting book, it has a lot of articles on shooting and historic info. I reread it fairly often.
Dana