Last Christmas get-together at my brother-in-law's place we were shooting into a long-used steel bullet trap. From 50 yards a .223 was shot at a small-caliber spinner target and a ricochet came back & hit my nephew below his eye hard enough to break skin & leave a circular imprint. Later another ricochet hit my daughter but did no injury. Now, the family is afraid to use the bullet trap as a safe backstop. I contend that shooting a high velocity round at a too-small spinner resulted in the spinner flipping around before the bullet had completely passed it and it hit the bullet, sending it up at the angled metal, allowing it to ricochet back. My truly much more experienced family members (Marines with extensive shooting experience and technical knowledge) disagree. We'll be gathering again in a few days, and I'd like to be able to discuss the situation intelligently with them. What do y'all think?
Spinner Targets plus steel bullet trap
- Thread starter .284 shooter
- Start date
chuckshooter
Silver $$ Contributor
I think after one ricochet, I would have said this is not a good idea and stopped. or is this one of those moments "hey you all, hold my beer and watch this"
I think the ricochet is more likely caused from being deflected twice. the spinner causing the bullet to change directions and then not hitting the steel trap straight on, giving it a better change of ricocheting. full metal jacket bullets?
I think the ricochet is more likely caused from being deflected twice. the spinner causing the bullet to change directions and then not hitting the steel trap straight on, giving it a better change of ricocheting. full metal jacket bullets?
The first time, due to the perfectly round impression left under my nephew's eye, it was at fist surmised that brass had come up and hit him. It wasn't until after the second ricochet that it was realized that wasn't a reasonable conclusion. Yes, metal jacketed. The trap is a forty-five degree plate, of course angled downward toward the back. In order to ricochet back to us the bullet would have had to strike it at an upward trajectory. For that to happen by hitting a hanging spinner, the spinner would have had to come around and slap it upward. I believe that a small spinner hit at high velocity could do this. The Marines don't.
Is the backstop mild steel? Or ar500?
If mild steel, the bullet would leave craters on the steel causing bullet ricochet. Even hitting a spinner target that isnt rated for 223 at 50 yards could cause a ricochet I would think.
One place I shoot has 4x4 post with plywood on them, then metal fence post In the ground with plywood creating a box. Behind that is sand, behind that is a piece of ar500 set at an angle just incase a round gets through.
If mild steel, the bullet would leave craters on the steel causing bullet ricochet. Even hitting a spinner target that isnt rated for 223 at 50 yards could cause a ricochet I would think.
One place I shoot has 4x4 post with plywood on them, then metal fence post In the ground with plywood creating a box. Behind that is sand, behind that is a piece of ar500 set at an angle just incase a round gets through.
I don't know what steel the backstop is. My brother-in-law made it many years ago. He might or might not know what he used. I'll try to remember to inspect it for craters when I go there in a few days. The problem is that they are afraid to use it now and don't have a readily available place to shoot now, and I think they can safely use it for anything as long as they don't use high velocity ammo on small spinners. I was hoping to be able to point them at a reply from someone who could speak authoritatively on the subject of spinners in front of backstops. It's not a problem at my place, 'cuz I have a ten foot thick dirt pile as a backstop. That only helps them when they are here visiting.
I tend to agree. One son-in-law that lives over there brought the AR15 he built and the other one that lives near me had brought his along too. I prefer a dirt berm like I have at my place. The one that lives nearby can safely shoot from 350 yards at my place. But my daughter & son-in-law over there don't have a readily accessible nearby long-range facility.
Does your statement mean that you don't think a small spinner could be the source of the problem?
Hard to imagine a spinner (after being struck by a bullet) could spin around quick enough to hit a bullet traveling over 2500 FPS. Is the bullet trap steel at an angle for misses? I’m thinking the bullet must hit the spinner square enough to send a richochet straight back OR a bullet is richocheting off a mangled steel trap. You might try hanging a tarp behind the spinner and in front of the steel plate to deter richochets off the plate.
ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE! Do the math! For example, if the spinner is 4" tall from support rod to bottom of spinner, then one complete revolution is about 25". Lets assume that the bullet was traveling at around 2600 fps when it hits the spinner. Some energy is transferred to the spinner and some velocity is lost. Lets say the bullet drops way down to 500 fps after hitting the spinner and that it also continues on the same path. For what you are saying to happen, it sounds like the spinner has to spin completely around plus a little further so the spinner is angled up slightly, then hit the bullet and knock it up into the angled backstop and back to the original shooter. Lets say the spinner has to go another 1" so it is angled up - that makes a total of about 26" it has to travel around to catch up to the bullet. The bullet can't go any farther than 1" in the time it takes the spinner to go around or else the bullet would be past the spinner. At 500 fps (6000 inches per sec) it takes 0.00017 seconds for the bullet to travel 1". Now the spinner has to travel a total of 26 inches in less than 0.00017 seconds so the bullet doesn't pass it. 26 inches (2.17 feet) in 0.00017 seconds is a speed of about 12,765 feet per second. Marine is right - you are absolutely wrong.
For the spinner to make a rotation and strike the bullet, it would have to make a complete revolution before the bullet could travel more than about an inch. For a 2500 feet per second projectile, (which is moving 30,000 inches per second), your spinner has to make 1 revolution in 1/30000th of a second... which is to say it must accelerate from 0 to a first revolution average speed of 1.8 million rpm. This assumes the bullet didn't slow when it struck the spinner, so let's be generous and speculate that the bullet speed cut in half...that is still a speed approaching 1 million rpm... I'll leave it to someone else to calculate all the g forces occurring to that spinner, which would likely make it disintegrate ( speculation on my part)
The spinner may well be the problem, likely because of its material, but not because it spun around to impact the bullet.
Edit To Add:
I took so long to do the math, I didn't see the above post -which is suggesting the same thing I am - before posting
Happy New Year
I think anything made of the wrong steel shot with a fire arm, 22lr, pistol, or center fire, would be the problem. Not the spinner spinning around and making contact with the bullet agian.
I'm going to bet that the steel is mild steel and has craters in it causing bullets to fly anywhere and everywhere. I would not be shooting using the current back stop. Not really for the fear of a bullet getting by the back stop, but for fear it would come back at me.
Thank you. That was the kind of definitive answer I was hoping for in response to my opening post. I would posit that the emphasis should be put upon the Revolutions Per Second the impact could produce as opposed to the distance of travel for the longest point in the circumference of the spinner's orbit, but the results of that calculation still indicates I likely was wrong. The impact might have been at the top of the disk, in which case the most possible energy would be transferred to orbital velocity, inducing the highest possible rate of spin. In that case the disk would have to spin one revolution, regardless of distance, in less time than it takes for the bullet to travel out of its path. The ricochet that hit my nephew broke skin but didn't penetrate tissue and lodge there. Since an 800FPS BB or pellet will easily do that, I'd posit that the ricochet was probably moving at less than half that, say 350 FPS. The physics of the ricochet dictates that some energy was lost upon impact with the backstop, so 500 FPS at that impact is a reasonable conjecture. All this means one revolution would have to have occurred in in the time it takes for a 500 FPS bullet to travel THREE inches (the distance from the top of the target to the bottom of the target). That would require a rotation in about .00051 seconds (about 1960 RPS). That RPS probably isn't possible even with the energy from a high velocity .223. Thanks for doing the heavy lifting and giving me calculations to work with.
Dusty Stevens
Shiner
don't shoot a centerfire rifle at a steel target at 50yds no matter if its made from ar500 or trump limo door panels- even with no homemade bullet trap. your family is lucky nobody has been injured really. stick to the slow pistol rounds (45acp/ 38spl wadcutter) on something like that
KMart
Gold $$ Contributor
.284 shooter,
God and Mother Nature have given you and your relatives 2 warning shots (pun intended). Are you folks going to wake up and shut this operation down before someone is seriously injured?
Another question on the 223 FMJ bullets being shot. Are they Steel Core by chance?
I’ve read all the previous posts and have come to the conclusion many of you asked your mother ‘Why” when she told you not to run with scissors. Who cares “why”. Stop doing it.
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