Soft Primers?

[dcali]

I ran across an issue I've never seen before. (At least I don't think I have - I don't make a habit of examining spent primers). I was decapping some brass, and the pin pushed right through the primer. Inspecting the spent primers showed that most of them came out normally, while others were deformed by the pin, and 2/100 were punctured.

Decapping force was not abnormal. The load, which is not excessively hot shows no pressure signs other than a very slight cratering, which I don't think is real (QuickLOAD puts the pressure at less than SAAMI max). I have successfully used this load with the same lot of brass, powder and primer in the same rifle for several hundred rounds previously, and I don't recall it happening. In fact, I had shot about 600 of the 1000 in the box before this happened.

The primers are CCI 400s.

It's not a problem per se, but it struck me as unusual. Anyone see anything like this before?

Edit: Possibly pertinent - this was in Lapua Palma brass, which has a small flash hole.

 

[alinwa]

I've never seen that

 

[JRS]

Too much pressure on the primer when it was fired causes the cup to weaken.

 

[jepp2]

Seeing the ones that deformed during depriming (before they were deprimed) would have been very helpful. But as a general comment on CCI 400 primers:

"Small Rifle Standard

CCI 400 -thin .020" cup, not recommended for AR15 use by CCI/Speer. Good for .22 Hornet, .30 Carbine. See Note 1 at the bottom of the page
CCI BR4 - match primer with a thicker .025" cup.
Federal 205 - Mil-Spec cup thickness according to Federal - okay for 5.56mm. .0225" cup thickness.
Federal 205M - same as the 205 but the match version.
Magtech PR-SR - .025" cup thickness (not much feedback yet on this new primer as to AR15 suitability but with the same cup thickness as the Rem 7 1/2 it looks good so far)
Remington 6 ½ - thin .020" cup, intended for older, lower pressure rounds Remington says do not use for the .223 Rem or other similar pressure rounds. Good for .22 Hornet, .30 Carbine.
Remington 7 ½ BR - A match or "bench rest" primer. Lyman & Nosler classify this primer as a Standard. Remington says the compound is the same as the 6 1/2 but with a thicker .025" cup.
RWS 4033
Winchester WSR - some piercing issues noted when changed from silver to brass cup. Cup thickness is a bit thinner at .021". Most say they are good to go for the AR15 despite that, probably because of the hardness of the cup. Some feel they are less resistant to higher pressures.
Wolf/Tula Small Rifle SR #KVB-223 - soft, sensitive copper cup, not recommended for AR15/military rifle use or high pressure rounds."

CCI 400's aren't my go to primer

 

[Bc'z]

Mever saw that before, but I'll keep my eyes peeled. I've got over 2k rounds done with the 400's

 

[dcali]

Seeing the ones that deformed during depriming (before they were deprimed) would have been very helpful.

They all looked the same. Normal looking primer - no flattened corners, and a very slight cratering.

 

[Rsadams]

I run CCI 400s in the AR platform although I understand why they could be a problem... I am lucky my AR doesn't dent primers..
I have never run across that either.. if your sure the load was fine and they were not doing it in the gun , you have a choice of useing the rest or not... I probably would just to burn them up.... Now if it keeps happening I would take a closer look at things...
It's possible there just thin... Not known for there thickness and a few could have gotten past Q/C...
Trust your gut , if it says no put them away and open another box and see what happens...

 

[dcali]

I run CCI 400s in the AR platform although I understand why they could be a problem... I am lucky my AR doesn't dent primers..
I have never run across that either.. if your sure the load was fine and they were not doing it in the gun , you have a choice of useing the rest or not... I probably would just to burn them up.... Now if it keeps happening I would take a closer look at things...
It's possible there just thin... Not known for there thickness and a few could have gotten past Q/C...
Trust your gut , if it says no put them away and open another box and see what happens...

There's only a few trays left, and they worked in the gun, so I'm just going to use them. I just thought it was odd. I usually shoot Federals, but last year there was a shortage locally, so I switched to CCI. Perhaps I need to find another brand.

 

[Rsadams]

There's only a few trays left, and they worked in the gun, so I'm just going to use them. I just thought it was odd. I usually shoot Federals, but last year there was a shortage locally, so I switched to CCI. Perhaps I need to find another brand.

Yup , if I only had a few left I would burn them up... Go back and order a bunch of federal or on the cheap S&B... Or try some CCI BR but their expensive compared to standered 400s... Now may be the time to buy some 100 packs and do some experiments.... Anything you do , now's the time to buy up a bunch for the future.... Have a great day

 

[jepp2]

Anyone see anything like this before?

The only time I see the primers reverse like the far right one, is when I am depriming brass with a crimp. Since we know Lapua isn't crimped, did they prime tightly? If so, the smaller decapping pin and the thinner primer might be the culprit.

 

[dcali]

The only time I see the primers reverse like the far right one, is when I am depriming brass with a crimp. Since we know Lapua isn't crimped, did they prime tightly? If so, the smaller decapping pin and the thinner primer might be the culprit.

As best I can remember, they went in normally. I certainly don't recall any hard seating primers. This lot of brass has had 4-5 firings, much of it with primers out of the same box of 1000. They did sit over the winter, but I've done that many times in the past without any effect.

 

[Laurie]

Yes, I've seen that before - as JRS says in post #3 it is a model with a weak cup that has been over-stressed during firing. CCI-400s and Rem 6 1/2s were designed for the 35,000 psi Hornet and converted rimfire or varmint rifles built on Martini Cadet etc actions with weak firing systems way back in the 30s and 40s and shouldn't be used in very high pressure loads. Remington used to publish such a warning for the # 6 1/2 at one time but it has disappeared apart from on some suppliers' websites.

 

[Webster]

I ran across an issue I've never seen before. (At least I don't think I have - I don't make a habit of examining spent primers). I was decapping some brass, and the pin pushed right through the primer. Inspecting the spent primers showed that most of them came out normally, while others were deformed by the pin, and 2/100 were punctured.

Decapping force was not abnormal. The load, which is not excessively hot shows no pressure signs other than a very slight cratering, which I don't think is real (QuickLOAD puts the pressure at less than SAAMI max). I have successfully used this load with the same lot of brass, powder and primer in the same rifle for several hundred rounds previously, and I don't recall it happening. In fact, I had shot about 600 of the 1000 in the box before this happened.

The primers are CCI 400s.

It's not a problem per se, but it struck me as unusual. Anyone see anything like this before?

Edit: Possibly pertinent - this was in Lapua Palma brass, which has a small flash hole.

View attachment 1048908

All the primers in a box should have been stamped out of the same sheet of brass. Same hardness. Don't know if a lot is made from more than one sheet of brass. I would think they check the sheet hardness? The problem must be something other than the brass quality.

The primer pix at 6 o'clock looks very flat with rounded edges. Whats the black color around the edges?

"not excessively hot shows no pressure signs other than a very slight cratering, which I don't think is real (QuickLOAD puts the pressure at less than SAAMI max)"

What does not excessively hot mean. How does your load compare to max loads in reloading manuals. I wouldn't assume QuickLoad always gives good values.

 

[JLT]

I had this happen this morning, as a matter of fact. I was decapping 500 pieces of once-fired .357 Sig brass (Speer headstamp) and had this happened eight or nine times, so a little less than two percent. These flash holes are small as well.

I'd never encountered this before, either. It could be mechanical in nature - the smaller cross-sectional area of the decapping pin is a more effective penetrator - but I've decapped more than a fair amount of small flash hole brass in my time and I have never seen this happen before today. Perhaps this, in combination with a slightly softer batch of brass used by CCI some time ago is behind it.

 

[dcali]

All the primers in a box should have been stamped out of the same sheet of brass. Same hardness. Don't know if a lot is made from more than one sheet of brass. I would think they check the sheet hardness? The problem must be something other than the brass quality.

The primer pix at 6 o'clock looks very flat with rounded edges. Whats the black color around the edges?

"not excessively hot shows no pressure signs other than a very slight cratering, which I don't think is real (QuickLOAD puts the pressure at less than SAAMI max)"

What does not excessively hot mean. How does your load compare to max loads in reloading manuals. I wouldn't assume QuickLoad always gives good values.

The used primers are flattened slightly (the picture looks worse than they are due to the lighting), but not any more than I've seen a million times before - they're certainly not mashed up against the case head. There's no book load for this load - they're long seated FTR loads, but they're not as hot as many are using, and experience loading them for pressure signs + quickload tells me they're just under max. Not light, but not crazy hot either. I've loaded a bit hotter without issue with the same box of primers. Go figure.

I think it's a combination of me never having used CCI 400s in this application before, and the feedback from Laurie and others above that they're just too thin. Throw in smaller than normal decapping pin, a little grit and/or corrosion from sitting too long, and I guess that's what happens. I have no idea why it never happened with the first 600 out of the box.

In any case the cure seems to be to go back to using Federal.

 

[dcali]

I had this happen this morning, as a matter of fact. I was decapping 500 pieces of once-fired .357 Sig brass (Speer headstamp) and had this happened eight or nine times, so a little less than two percent. These flash holes are small as well.

I'd never encountered this before, either. It could be mechanical in nature - the smaller cross-sectional area of the decapping pin is a more effective penetrator - but I've decapped more than a fair amount of small flash hole brass in my time and I have never seen this happen before today. Perhaps this, in combination with a slightly softer batch of brass used by CCI some time ago is behind it.

Ha. What time? Perhaps there was a disturbance in the force.

 

[Webster]

I ran across an issue I've never seen before. (At least I don't think I have - I don't make a habit of examining spent primers). I was decapping some brass, and the pin pushed right through the primer. Inspecting the spent primers showed that most of them came out normally, while others were deformed by the pin, and 2/100 were punctured.

Decapping force was not abnormal. The load, which is not excessively hot shows no pressure signs other than a very slight cratering, which I don't think is real (QuickLOAD puts the pressure at less than SAAMI max). I have successfully used this load with the same lot of brass, powder and primer in the same rifle for several hundred rounds previously, and I don't recall it happening. In fact, I had shot about 600 of the 1000 in the box before this happened.

The primers are CCI 400s.

It's not a problem per se, but it struck me as unusual. Anyone see anything like this before?

Edit: Possibly pertinent - this was in Lapua Palma brass, which has a small flash hole.

View attachment 1048908

CCI 400 have a thin cup.

 

[Steve morgan]

I ran across an issue I've never seen before. (At least I don't think I have - I don't make a habit of examining spent primers). I was decapping some brass, and the pin pushed right through the primer. Inspecting the spent primers showed that most of them came out normally, while others were deformed by the pin, and 2/100 were punctured.

Decapping force was not abnormal. The load, which is not excessively hot shows no pressure signs other than a very slight cratering, which I don't think is real (QuickLOAD puts the pressure at less than SAAMI max). I have successfully used this load with the same lot of brass, powder and primer in the same rifle for several hundred rounds previously, and I don't recall it happening. In fact, I had shot about 600 of the 1000 in the box before this happened.

The primers are CCI 400s.

It's not a problem per se, but it struck me as unusual. Anyone see anything like this before?

Edit: Possibly pertinent - this was in Lapua Palma brass, which has a small flash hole.

View attachment 1048908

Never seen that

 

[KMart]

The small diameter decaping pin contributed to the situation. The primer cup is thin and the pin is small and maybe a little pointed. As long as you didn't blank any primers, you should be ok.

 

[JLT]

Ha. What time? Perhaps there was a disturbance in the force.

About 10:00 am, CDST.

I felt something . . .