I recently started target shooting at 200 and 300yds. On my last outing I noticed something unusual. My 200 yd groups were larger than my 300 yd groups. I fired five-5 shot groups at 200 yds that averaged 2.0 inches,center to center). I then fired five-5 shot groups at 300yds and these averaged 1.5 inches,ctc). The rifle is a .223 weatherby vanguard varmint special with a 1-12 twist and a nikon 4-12 monarch scope.The load used for all groups was a 55 hornady v-max, with varget powder, and fed205m primers. I know that the distances to target were accurate and there was no significant wind at the range. I shouldn't complain, but why would this occur? Any ideas/opinions?
Smaller groups at longer range?
- Thread starter larbike
- Start date
A lot of BR shooters believe that some of the longer high B C bullets don't settle down and stop wobbling until it reaches on out to about 300 yds. or so. And some argue that their loads are more accurate at 500 yds. than at 100 yds. I personally have not had this occur with my rifles. My experience with the longer high B C bullets has been that if it was not accurate at 100 yds. then I need not expect it to be accurate at 500 yds. But, I have no credentials as a BR shooter. I just shoot alot and sometimes at 500 and 600 yds. My best group at 500 yds. to date is .991 and that load was shooting one ragged hole at 100 yds. with 6mm Berger 105 VLDs. As for the 55 gr. V-max, maybe some others have seen this before. I'm sure some one will chime in for you and shed some light on your good fortune. Bill
Catshooter would agree.RemVS308 said:
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I’ve read about a person that had equipment to measure the same group at different distances and he said he never got a smaller group MOA wise at a longer distance. Even when using long VLD bullets. I’ve also read that all bullets stabilize before 100 yards or they don‘t stabilize. But I’ve also read where this could occur at one certain distance due to the differing bullet speeds in relation to the barrel vibration,or barrel position at the time of the bullet exit).
hello,i will say from the start that i'm not the best shot or anything of that nature.but what i can say is this.a very good friend Doc Lisenby and i did a test on flat base and boat tail bullets.we found that most flat base bullets would stabalize better out at 200 than 100yrds.also our way of thinking is that it does take more time for a flat base too stabalize than a BT bullet.so by me saying this,i we think or thought i should say because Doc has left this world is just what bullet do you choose from.because some time or another both shoot good.its all about the time and effort that one is willing to put in the rifel and loads they are wanting to get too shoot for their needs.hope that this is some type of help for you.
in memory of Doc Lisenby
in memory of Doc Lisenby
This subject comes up at least 2 or 3 times every year and it always ends up with the same types of comments.
Like gunnut, I always suggest that the 2-target test will erase all doubts. I've done it a few times myself and the results have always been the same. Last night I was reading Dr Franklin Mann's classic, THE BULLETS FLIGHT, and he did those 2-target tests way back at the turn of the 20th Century. His results were the same as mine.
It's simple physics. You can't start a bullet in one direction and then have it magically change direction mid-stream. Yaw, wobble, corkscrewing, stabilization, notwithstanding.
JMHO
Ray
Like gunnut, I always suggest that the 2-target test will erase all doubts. I've done it a few times myself and the results have always been the same. Last night I was reading Dr Franklin Mann's classic, THE BULLETS FLIGHT, and he did those 2-target tests way back at the turn of the 20th Century. His results were the same as mine.
It's simple physics. You can't start a bullet in one direction and then have it magically change direction mid-stream. Yaw, wobble, corkscrewing, stabilization, notwithstanding.
JMHO
Ray
halfmoanut
Silver $$ Contributor
I am wondering about this debate and I am no expert by far and have just started shooting longer ranges for the past two years, however just my misconception of this is, if a bullet will shoot .250 at 100yds and .375 at 200yds how would these bullets be unstable and shoot better at 300,400,500 with all the elements in the atmosphere,wind,humidity,barometric pressure etc,etc.Once a bullet is pushed off course from whatever how can it possibly get stablized better? I have a hard time believing that a bullet that shoots 3" at 200 will shoot 2" at 600.Just my way of thinking.
Forum Boss
Administrator
Cheechako said:
Ray speaks the truth. If you want to shoot 1/4 MOA at 600 yards, you better have a rifle that can shoot 1/4 MOA,or better) at 100 yards,in zero-wind conditions). All the great 600-yard guns I've shot or observed were capable of itty-bitty groups at 100 yards even with long bullets.
That said, a half-moa rifle can, occassionally, by sheer chance, produce a smaller group than that at long range. But run five 5-shot groups with the same rifle and you'll see the law of averages come back into play. The guys who are shooting real small at 1000 yards have rifles that will consistently shoot inside an inch at 300 in zero-wind conditions.
Moderator said:
The question is are your test repeatable? Have you tried the same test more than once?
The reason I'm asking is that if you shoot VLDs, they are so sensitive to seating depth that it is not unusual to see groups at short range bigger,MOA) than long range. If you are very careful and adjust your OAL to be exactly the same for each round,at the ojive) you may see different results.
The reason I'm asking is that if you shoot VLDs, they are so sensitive to seating depth that it is not unusual to see groups at short range bigger,MOA) than long range. If you are very careful and adjust your OAL to be exactly the same for each round,at the ojive) you may see different results.
I THINK I might have a possible answer to some of the reason some loads might shoot smaller MOA at longer ranges,that is less moa, but not quite smaller groups).
If a rifle barrel is tuned for top accuraccy at say 600 yds, getting minimal verticle, the faster rounds which would normaly hit high, are exiting the barrel in a downward part of its vibration node and the shots which are slightly slower are exiting the barrel which the barrel is at the top of its vibration node which will compensate for any velocity spread at longer ranges. At short ranges, the difference in velocity will still cause high and low shots, giving higher MOA groups as the extra velocity of the fast rounds,leaving the barrel at a low point in the vibration cycle) doesnt make as much difference at short ranges.
This is on top of the parralax correction and aiming smaller at longer ranges
Does this make sense????
I am certainly open to correction by those who actualy know what they are talking about.
If a rifle barrel is tuned for top accuraccy at say 600 yds, getting minimal verticle, the faster rounds which would normaly hit high, are exiting the barrel in a downward part of its vibration node and the shots which are slightly slower are exiting the barrel which the barrel is at the top of its vibration node which will compensate for any velocity spread at longer ranges. At short ranges, the difference in velocity will still cause high and low shots, giving higher MOA groups as the extra velocity of the fast rounds,leaving the barrel at a low point in the vibration cycle) doesnt make as much difference at short ranges.
This is on top of the parralax correction and aiming smaller at longer ranges
Does this make sense????
I am certainly open to correction by those who actualy know what they are talking about.
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