small primer .308 brass
- Thread starter sub.sonic
- Start date
The benefits are two-fold.
The main one is reduced MV spreads which is important to the long range shooter as it's essential to have a small range of velocities otherwise you get vertical stringing on the target. That's why the initiative involved the US Palma team whose members are by definition using the cartridge at 800, 900, and 1,000 yards, and Lapua has also named this brass as 'Palma Match' to differentiate it from the regular variety. You wouldn't see much if any benefit at shorter ranges. So, likely users will be long-range Fullbore / Target Rifle, Palma and especially F/TR shooters who want to minimise their elevation spreads at these ranges.
The other benefit as reported by team members after using the trial cases throughout the last season is that they found much less variablity in primer performance between manufacturing lots with SR magnum and BR types than in equivalent large rifle types, so worries about getting a 'good batch' can now be forgotten - allegedly. Remember, it's not just a small primer pocket, but the new case uses the small (0.061" dia) flash-hole size as per PPC, BR and 6.5X47L brass, this regarded as a 'good thing' in itself for ignition consistency
When Remington made small primer '.308 BR' brass many years ago - whose purpose was mainly to be reformed into BR family cases rather than used as supplied - users in as-manufactured 308W form found that ignition was only just adequate with the primers and powders available at the time, so problems such as sudden poor accuracy and even hangfires arose under adverse conditions such as very low temperatures, or with some load combinations.
The Palma team report no such problems with their loads (VarGet?) even after putting cartridges in the freezer overnight before use. However, there might still be issues if you loaded a 'Palma' case with ball powders that need a stronger primer flame for reliable ignition, or if a 'regular' SR primer - CCI-400 and similar - were used.
One 'problem' that likely will survive though is that SR primers need a smaller diameter firing pin than LR varieties with a snug fit in the bolt -face or you usually get primer cratering and 'blanking' at normal working pressures limiting the load - not a problem in most modern long-range match rifles that use Barnard, RPA etc actions, but could require the firing pin turning down and the bolt bushed in Remington 700 and Winchester 70 actions (In the USA Gre-Tan has made an art out of this work).
While Palma team members did the 'field-testing' over a full competition season, you can be sure Lapua tested it exhaustively too and if they're putting it on the market, are 100% convinced it works, and offers benefits.
Unlike the Remy BR brass that was deliberately made with thin walls to facilitate re-forming into shorter cases, it is reported that the new Lapua stuff will be drawn identically to the standard version, and the only change will be to the primer pocket and flash-hole.
The new Lapua brass is also reportedly to be supplied in blue plastic containers that double up as ammunition boxes which hints that Lapua sees it as a premium product in marketing terms. That, and it's being a specialist, small production run product suggests it will not be cheap when it reaches the dealers' shelves next year! One imagines this will be top-line stuff though in terms of wall thickness consistency etc given its premium status.
No, Remington doesn't make this version of the case anymore, and hasn't for many (20? 30?) years. Like I said, the intention was for buyers to re-form it into BR cases hence made with very thin walls. Eventually the company started producing 7mm BR brass so the need for the .308 'basic' case disappeared. You've got some brass there that must be virtually collectors' items now!
Laurie,
York, England
The main one is reduced MV spreads which is important to the long range shooter as it's essential to have a small range of velocities otherwise you get vertical stringing on the target. That's why the initiative involved the US Palma team whose members are by definition using the cartridge at 800, 900, and 1,000 yards, and Lapua has also named this brass as 'Palma Match' to differentiate it from the regular variety. You wouldn't see much if any benefit at shorter ranges. So, likely users will be long-range Fullbore / Target Rifle, Palma and especially F/TR shooters who want to minimise their elevation spreads at these ranges.
The other benefit as reported by team members after using the trial cases throughout the last season is that they found much less variablity in primer performance between manufacturing lots with SR magnum and BR types than in equivalent large rifle types, so worries about getting a 'good batch' can now be forgotten - allegedly. Remember, it's not just a small primer pocket, but the new case uses the small (0.061" dia) flash-hole size as per PPC, BR and 6.5X47L brass, this regarded as a 'good thing' in itself for ignition consistency
When Remington made small primer '.308 BR' brass many years ago - whose purpose was mainly to be reformed into BR family cases rather than used as supplied - users in as-manufactured 308W form found that ignition was only just adequate with the primers and powders available at the time, so problems such as sudden poor accuracy and even hangfires arose under adverse conditions such as very low temperatures, or with some load combinations.
The Palma team report no such problems with their loads (VarGet?) even after putting cartridges in the freezer overnight before use. However, there might still be issues if you loaded a 'Palma' case with ball powders that need a stronger primer flame for reliable ignition, or if a 'regular' SR primer - CCI-400 and similar - were used.
One 'problem' that likely will survive though is that SR primers need a smaller diameter firing pin than LR varieties with a snug fit in the bolt -face or you usually get primer cratering and 'blanking' at normal working pressures limiting the load - not a problem in most modern long-range match rifles that use Barnard, RPA etc actions, but could require the firing pin turning down and the bolt bushed in Remington 700 and Winchester 70 actions (In the USA Gre-Tan has made an art out of this work).
While Palma team members did the 'field-testing' over a full competition season, you can be sure Lapua tested it exhaustively too and if they're putting it on the market, are 100% convinced it works, and offers benefits.
Unlike the Remy BR brass that was deliberately made with thin walls to facilitate re-forming into shorter cases, it is reported that the new Lapua stuff will be drawn identically to the standard version, and the only change will be to the primer pocket and flash-hole.
The new Lapua brass is also reportedly to be supplied in blue plastic containers that double up as ammunition boxes which hints that Lapua sees it as a premium product in marketing terms. That, and it's being a specialist, small production run product suggests it will not be cheap when it reaches the dealers' shelves next year! One imagines this will be top-line stuff though in terms of wall thickness consistency etc given its premium status.
No, Remington doesn't make this version of the case anymore, and hasn't for many (20? 30?) years. Like I said, the intention was for buyers to re-form it into BR cases hence made with very thin walls. Eventually the company started producing 7mm BR brass so the need for the .308 'basic' case disappeared. You've got some brass there that must be virtually collectors' items now!
Laurie,
York, England
Back in 1981, my good friend Roger Gower and I were shooting a case that he and Bob Brackney designed, it was called the 6X44 and it was originally formed from .300 savage brass, when Remington came out with the 308BR brass, that cartridge really came to life, it was finicky to make shoot so in late 1981, I took the same case and necked it up to 30X44 and shooting 150 gr. Sierra's I shot a 250-14 X in a transcontintal league match, which in those days was a head turning score. The brass was easy to form because it was thin, I even won the N.J. state championships with that case shooting in the (at the time) Master Calss with a full length .308 and 168 Gr. Sierra's. I don't think it has been produced for a long time. I still have two box's and have been toying with the idea of putting together another 30X44 and shooting some of these wonderful light bullets in a score match just to see ho I would fair.
I'd agree with John. A combination of their age and the thin walls will likely see short life - although who knows in practice! More to the point though, any load you work up will be a one-off applicable only to these cases. The thin walls will increase the internal capacity which moves pressures downwards as does the small primer. If you work up to a full velocity load, it could be 1.5, maybe even two grains or more too high for modern Lapua brass, so when you need to replace it, as you will sooner or later, you'll have to start load development again from scratch.
It seems a shame to use it up too in a .308W rifle when there is so much choice in new cases. I don't know how much of this brass is still around in unused original form, but there can't be much now other than odd part boxes left over from old projects. It may have collector's value, or there may still be guys like Chuckhunter around who might fancy it for a one-off wildcat project like the 30X44 and give a reasonable price for it.
It'd be worth trying to see if there is any interest in it at what price by putting it up for sale on this forum. If nobody bites, you've not lost anything other than a week or two.
Laurie
It seems a shame to use it up too in a .308W rifle when there is so much choice in new cases. I don't know how much of this brass is still around in unused original form, but there can't be much now other than odd part boxes left over from old projects. It may have collector's value, or there may still be guys like Chuckhunter around who might fancy it for a one-off wildcat project like the 30X44 and give a reasonable price for it.
It'd be worth trying to see if there is any interest in it at what price by putting it up for sale on this forum. If nobody bites, you've not lost anything other than a week or two.
Laurie
Dans40X
Welder
I prefer the Rem URBR brass over commercial 308 brass for it's versatility.
The URBR brass weight(155gr) is more consistent than Lapua/others.
I've loaded/fired URBR brass 20-25 times in 7.62 chambers pushing 155's over 47gr of 4064/VV135 with out loosing a pocket or splitting a neck to date(20yrs).
As mentioned, internal powder capacities is approximately 2gr more powder than any commercial/mil spec 308/7.62 case.
SD & ES using the small primer pocketed URBR brass is second to none.
Firing pin diameters haven't been an issue,being run thru a Barnard P-O2 & Rem 40X's/700's.
I believe the first run of Rem URBR brass went out w/ small .060" flash holes.
Ignition problems prevailed trying to light 47-49gr of powder.
The 4500 pieces of virgin Rem URBR brass in my possession have the .080" flash hole & will last me a few life times.
The URBR brass weight(155gr) is more consistent than Lapua/others.
I've loaded/fired URBR brass 20-25 times in 7.62 chambers pushing 155's over 47gr of 4064/VV135 with out loosing a pocket or splitting a neck to date(20yrs).
As mentioned, internal powder capacities is approximately 2gr more powder than any commercial/mil spec 308/7.62 case.
SD & ES using the small primer pocketed URBR brass is second to none.
Firing pin diameters haven't been an issue,being run thru a Barnard P-O2 & Rem 40X's/700's.
I believe the first run of Rem URBR brass went out w/ small .060" flash holes.
Ignition problems prevailed trying to light 47-49gr of powder.
The 4500 pieces of virgin Rem URBR brass in my possession have the .080" flash hole & will last me a few life times.
Dan and others:
I shoot a 6mmBRX and a 6mmDasher. I use Lapua 6mmBR brass and fire form.
The Lapua 6mmBR web is rather thin in comparison to Lapua 308 brass.
The 6mmBR case capacity is about 37-38 grains.
I utilize only about 32.5 grains of capacity about 2 grains more than plain 6mmBR brass.
I was thinking about making some 6mmBRX brass from these small primer 308 cases.
I would expect to loose anout 10% case capacity but gain case wall thickness.
Your thoughts.
Nat Lambeth
I shoot a 6mmBRX and a 6mmDasher. I use Lapua 6mmBR brass and fire form.
The Lapua 6mmBR web is rather thin in comparison to Lapua 308 brass.
The 6mmBR case capacity is about 37-38 grains.
I utilize only about 32.5 grains of capacity about 2 grains more than plain 6mmBR brass.
I was thinking about making some 6mmBRX brass from these small primer 308 cases.
I would expect to loose anout 10% case capacity but gain case wall thickness.
Your thoughts.
Nat Lambeth
Nat,
an interesting project, if a frightening amount of work! Is case failure a problem with the BRX and Dasher, or any other 6BR variation? You may be trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist if so. Or, are you thinking of getting accuracy improvements from a stiffer case?
I read a very technically abtruse article somewhere (in the PS "Benchrest Shooting Primer" compendium of old articles from the magazine I think) that said the .220 Russ / PPC case is very thin in the junction and that makes it potentially weak but BR shooters really push the ammo and get away with it (presumably because of the strong tightly breached actions they use?) Case drawings were included to show just how thin this case is.
Anyway the gist of this piece, was that a thin junction here is a GOOD THING providing you don't blow the rifle up of course and this one of the factors that makes the PPC so accurate. He argued the case-head adjusts to the bolt through marginal distortion or somesuch process. it all seemed a bit far-fetched to me at the time, but weakness here is obviously not in itself a bad thing if he's right about this aspect of the PPC design.
Laurie
an interesting project, if a frightening amount of work! Is case failure a problem with the BRX and Dasher, or any other 6BR variation? You may be trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist if so. Or, are you thinking of getting accuracy improvements from a stiffer case?
I read a very technically abtruse article somewhere (in the PS "Benchrest Shooting Primer" compendium of old articles from the magazine I think) that said the .220 Russ / PPC case is very thin in the junction and that makes it potentially weak but BR shooters really push the ammo and get away with it (presumably because of the strong tightly breached actions they use?) Case drawings were included to show just how thin this case is.
Anyway the gist of this piece, was that a thin junction here is a GOOD THING providing you don't blow the rifle up of course and this one of the factors that makes the PPC so accurate. He argued the case-head adjusts to the bolt through marginal distortion or somesuch process. it all seemed a bit far-fetched to me at the time, but weakness here is obviously not in itself a bad thing if he's right about this aspect of the PPC design.
Laurie
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