When I got back into shooting and found that F-Class was the only game in town, I decided I "shoot what I got" and make improvements as I could afford them. What I got is a .308 Winchester Target Mod 70, to which I've added a Harris bipod and recently a Vortex 6.5-20X scope to replace my old Burris 12X. (My next upgrade will probably be a better bipod.) Since I have a fairly large quantity of DCM LC '77 match brass, I've been prepping and loading that, but I've been noticing a fair amount of vertical dispersion that I really can't account for by my screw-ups. I can generally hold the 9 ring, except when I miss a wind change. I was wondering if I should invest in a bag of commercial brass, which I'd then prep and sort, or just take the LC brass I'm shooting back to the bench and re-chronograph them to make sure they're holding SD? I've been shooting Nosler HPBTM 168s at 600.
Should I switch to commercial brass?
- Thread starter DRNewcomb
- Start date
Maybe take us step by step in your brass prep to see if you are missing anything?
dcali
Bullet Maker
If your rifle is only capable of holding the 9 ring, I would save the money and put it towards in a new barrel as soon as that makes financial sense, at which point you *might* also want to switch to commercial brass. With a little extra case prep and sorting, you should be able to get that LC brass to where it's not the limiting factor for your setup.
Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
As other noted, perhaps a bit more information would be helpful. For example, what distance(s) are you shooting in F-Class; is it all at 600 yd? What size groups is your setup and load consistently capable of at 100 yd? What velocity and ES/SD values are you obtaining with the 168s? My guess is that your brass may not be the [most] limiting factor. Although they can certainly work at 600 yd, the 168 bullets you're using are going to be subject to greater wind deflection than a higher BC bullet. That can easily include a significant vertical component if the terrain your shooting range is subject to the right wind conditions. However, if you can develop a load that will consistently shoot ~1/2 moa at 100 yd, the 168s will work for MR, no problem.
From the limited information given, I would guess that some improvement in your load development to obtain a more precise and consistent load would be a good place to start. Once you have that, you can work on your form and wind reading with confidence that your bullets are doing their part. If for some reason you cannot develop a load that will shoot in the 1/2 moa range at 100 yd, that might suggest the rifle itself may have some limitations. At that point, a new barrel would make obvious sense. Even without that information, a new barrel chambered for a higher BC bullet such as the 185 Juggernaut is not a huge expense and may not be a bad idea.
The other suggestion I would make is with regard to your optic. This is a place where you could spend some $$$ that wouldn't be wasted, even if you end up with a different rifle at some point. My eyes aren't what they were when i was in my twenties, but they're not bad. I can tell you that 20X magnification is far below where you want to be. You simply can't make as fine a hold with that mag at 600 yd as you could with 32X, 42X, or even 50-60X. It may not seem that important, but it is, and you will be able to tell the difference in your ability to make holds in finer increments immediately when you shoot through a higher power scope. Remember, you can always dial the mag down, but you can't dial it up if it's not there.
Between some improvement in your load development and a scope where you can really discern 1/4 moa (or less) holds on the target, I think you would find a big improvement in your ability to work on your shooting form and wind reading. If you think the brass is a problem at that point, by all means replace it. However, if in the meantime you're still concerned about the brass, you could at least find someone with tools such as a concentricity gauge, or even better, a way to measure case wall thickness. Anything that would allow you to potentially sort and/or cull some of your current brass to improve consistency without having to buy new brass and start over. I would also suggest that using one of a number of possible ways to sort and/or point bullets might also positively impact your consistency. The bottom line is that without a consistent setup/load, improvement in wind reading, form, or anything else, becomes much more challenging.
From the limited information given, I would guess that some improvement in your load development to obtain a more precise and consistent load would be a good place to start. Once you have that, you can work on your form and wind reading with confidence that your bullets are doing their part. If for some reason you cannot develop a load that will shoot in the 1/2 moa range at 100 yd, that might suggest the rifle itself may have some limitations. At that point, a new barrel would make obvious sense. Even without that information, a new barrel chambered for a higher BC bullet such as the 185 Juggernaut is not a huge expense and may not be a bad idea.
The other suggestion I would make is with regard to your optic. This is a place where you could spend some $$$ that wouldn't be wasted, even if you end up with a different rifle at some point. My eyes aren't what they were when i was in my twenties, but they're not bad. I can tell you that 20X magnification is far below where you want to be. You simply can't make as fine a hold with that mag at 600 yd as you could with 32X, 42X, or even 50-60X. It may not seem that important, but it is, and you will be able to tell the difference in your ability to make holds in finer increments immediately when you shoot through a higher power scope. Remember, you can always dial the mag down, but you can't dial it up if it's not there.
Between some improvement in your load development and a scope where you can really discern 1/4 moa (or less) holds on the target, I think you would find a big improvement in your ability to work on your shooting form and wind reading. If you think the brass is a problem at that point, by all means replace it. However, if in the meantime you're still concerned about the brass, you could at least find someone with tools such as a concentricity gauge, or even better, a way to measure case wall thickness. Anything that would allow you to potentially sort and/or cull some of your current brass to improve consistency without having to buy new brass and start over. I would also suggest that using one of a number of possible ways to sort and/or point bullets might also positively impact your consistency. The bottom line is that without a consistent setup/load, improvement in wind reading, form, or anything else, becomes much more challenging.
Thanks everyone for the suggestions. One limiting factor is the $$. I'm retired and simply don't have $2500 to spend on a NF scope. I can tell you that the 6.5-20X44 Vortex was a huge improvement over my old 12X Burris. Pretty much the same holds for spending $50/match for bullets. I have about 800 of the 168 Noslers left and until the club gets the 1000 yd side working again, they'll have to do for 600.
My process goes something like this. After one firing, I uniform the primer pockets and flash hole then neck turn & trim on my Forster hand lathe. The brass is vibro-tumbled in corn cob media with the blue Dillon compound added. At one time I had weighed the brass and relegated those outside a range for my "zombie apocalypse" ammo. That's been a while. The load I worked up is pretty hot: 46 gn of Varget and a Fed 215 primer, but the ES and SD were very low in my test batches. About 9 fps ES and SD of 3.3. Which is why I use this load despite the fact that the primers are slightly cratered. I use a Bonanza BR die set and an old RCBS Rock Chucker press. The necks are turned so that the sizing die only compresses them to about .306 ID. The expander ball almost never touches the neck wall. I've set the die so that it just bumps the shoulder back about 0.001. The bullets are seated to almost touch the lands. I hand anneal about every 5 or 6 firings. I'm sure I've forgotten to list something.
I suspect a lot of things. One could be that at 2800 fps, the rifle is just recoiling to hard to be consistent. I'm considering finding a good load back down around 2650. When I think about it. Holding the 9 ring in F-Class is the same as holding the 10 ring prone. Which may be about all the rifle can do.
That sounds REALLY hot and it's touching the rifling.
How does it perform with lighter loads? Does it perform differently after annealing?
And I am a bit confused you only neck turn the brass once in its lifetime?
How does it perform with lighter loads? Does it perform differently after annealing?
And I am a bit confused you only neck turn the brass once in its lifetime?
dcali
Bullet Maker
It wouldn't surprise me to hear your rifle is just unable to hold 1 MOA consistently even at 100 yards. If that is the case (verify it), every penny you have should be saved towards a new barrel. a 1 MOA gun is sort of the bare minimum to avoid total frustration in F Class, and 1/2 MOA or better is really what you want. Given your financial limits, I'd stick with the LC brass (although watch those loads or you'll wind up killing your brass prematurely - that load sounds on the toasty side depending on your OAL). If you find the scope limiting and can find a few bucks, a used fixed power 36X weaver or sightron will do you well for cheap. They're only a little above $400 new.
Higher BC bullets can be had and should be used. You don't need to spring for Bergers, as they're pretty spendy, but you can do better than 168's for similar money, and that's just free points.
You might not be able to afford top of the line, but you should be able to afford the gear required to beat some of the guys who can.
Just have to be careful and maybe put a little more time in at the loading bench sorting brass and bullets.
Higher BC bullets can be had and should be used. You don't need to spring for Bergers, as they're pretty spendy, but you can do better than 168's for similar money, and that's just free points.
You might not be able to afford top of the line, but you should be able to afford the gear required to beat some of the guys who can.
Just have to be careful and maybe put a little more time in at the loading bench sorting brass and bullets.Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
46 gr of Varget seems on the warm side, but 2800 fps may or may not not be excessively "hot", depending on your barrel length. I shoot 168 Hybrids out of an F-TR rifle with a 26" barrel at 2820 fps (H4895). That particular load is not "hot" and I don't find the recoil to be excessive. If your barrel is much shorter than 26", that might change things a bit. With the lower BC (relatively) of your 168s, I'm not sure slowing them down to 2650 is the best approach, unless as I mentioned above your barrel is shorter than 26". Slowing them down means giving up even more wind resistance, even if only a little. Every bit helps, as long as the precision is there. But if you find that the precision is much better at the lower velocity, I'd definitely consider that option.
In any event, it seems there are a few things you can work on to get the precision where you want it; velocity being one possibility. I'd also recommend that you anneal every firing if possible, certainly more often than every 5-6 firings. It simply increases the odds of improving consistency. Not sure neck turning is necessary if your rifle has a "no-turn" neck chamber, but that probably isn't hurting anything either. Identifying the optimal charge weight (along with very precise powder measurement) and maintaining consistent seating depth are two variables I believe significantly affect precision. If careful and rigorous reloading practices don't improve precision at 100 yd (i.e. ~1/2 moa or better), the re-barrel option would be one I'd strongly consider. On the other hand, of you can achieve that level of precision with your current setup, you can then focus on form and wind reading with more confidence that your setup and load aren't the limiting factors.
In any event, it seems there are a few things you can work on to get the precision where you want it; velocity being one possibility. I'd also recommend that you anneal every firing if possible, certainly more often than every 5-6 firings. It simply increases the odds of improving consistency. Not sure neck turning is necessary if your rifle has a "no-turn" neck chamber, but that probably isn't hurting anything either. Identifying the optimal charge weight (along with very precise powder measurement) and maintaining consistent seating depth are two variables I believe significantly affect precision. If careful and rigorous reloading practices don't improve precision at 100 yd (i.e. ~1/2 moa or better), the re-barrel option would be one I'd strongly consider. On the other hand, of you can achieve that level of precision with your current setup, you can then focus on form and wind reading with more confidence that your setup and load aren't the limiting factors.
joshb
Gold $$ Contributor
Hey! Sounds like you're working on this pretty well. Maybe do another culling of your brass weights.I had some fair to good results with Sierra MKs. Better than Noslers, anyway. Might try a box of them to eliminate that question. The charge you use seems hot to me. I stopped at 44.7 grains of Varget with the 168s. Ya might take a look at the Weaver T36. I tried one, liked it and bought another one. They go for about $325, lightly used. I also have a Sightron 8-32 that's nice. Got that one for$700. Keep picking away at it. You'll get there.I was concerned about being on the upper end of the loading scale but my test runs came out with the best ES & SD I've ever had. So, I kept it. I turn the necks about every 5 firings. Subsequent turning tend to just take a little off one side. I have not noticed a great difference before or after annealing.
Last match (Saturday), I made sure to keep all my fired brass in order. I plan to look carefully at those that produced high or low shots to see if they are any different (e.g. weight).
I'm thinking of building an annealer to remove one variable from the process.
I'm in the same position re retired, etc, etc,etc.....you might take a look at the Sightron SIII scopes in the 32X and 50X range....closer to $1K than to 2.5K....just a thought.
I considered the Weaver T36 but one of my issues with the old Burris scope was that, between my astigmatism and our intense mirage down here, the fine crosshair would get lost. The T36 comes either with a fine crosshair or a 1/8 MOA dot on a fine crosshair. If they offered something more distinct, it would be an easy choice. Anyway, this is getting a bit afield of reloading but I appreciate the suggestion. I only paid about $300 for the Vortex, so I could sell it on eBay and not suffer too much in the exchange.
dcali
Bullet Maker
You might check out a Sightron SII if you can look through one. It's very similar to the Weaver, but it might be better suited to your eyes (or it might be exactly the same). I have similar vision issues and also had a little more trouble picking out the reticle on mine (I have a 36x SII) than I would like, but it was usable with the dot, which helped a lot.
DR- Retired here also so I hear you. The LC match brass is good stuff, me I'd stick with it. Couple of things I would try from reading your OP. I don't use an expander ball in my non bushing dies. I use a Lyman M die, yes its another step but it doesn't pull the necks and you can vary the neck tension to the load. I don't like making my necks any thinner than necessary for the chamber, factory rifles are generous in that area. If anything on turning just hit the high spots. I'd also try a different powder. Good Luck to you.
I have several friends that used to shoot military rifle with LC brass. I agree with Josh. Prep the brass, then sort it by weight and/or volume. I am prepping some LC 07 and making it into 260 Rem for long range pistol shooting. It has been cleaned, sized, trimmed, deburred, primer pockets done, and flash holes done. Next will be neck thickness and annealing. When I am done with that, it will be time to weight and sort. I hope out of the 200 brass I have started with that I will have a box of 50+ that are extremely close. These are plain jane range pick-up sorted by headstamp. Good match brass should yield pretty good results. You are part way there already. Annealing for brass life and confirmation of weight/volume for equality should get you what you need. Fine tuning OAL and powder charge can often lead to better results than changing brass.
Pursue the best from what you already have and know. It is more often better than starting over and taking a chance with whatever you may get.
Good luck,
Steve
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