Short chamber? Freebore issue?

[KCurr0917]

Hey again everybody..I posted a few days ago that I was trying to find my lands so I’d know how far to seat my bullets off in this new to me rifle.

Well I’ve come across an issue. Just to start I seated a dummy round at “book max” COAL and at this measurement the bullets are jammed into the lands pretty aggressively I think…hard bolt close, obvious land marks on bullet. Seated with no touch they are above saami “minimum COAL” so my question is, is this something to be concerned with? Do I need an education on freebore? And how should I try load for this chamber? Remington 700 adl 222 rem. manufactured in early 70’s

Thanks for all the great advice so far from this forum!

Also as an edit..my dummy round had been resized to chamber with zero resistance if that’s a factor

 

[K22]

What kind of ogive on the bullet, secant or tangential. Is the "book" value based on the specific brand of bullet you are using or another brand?

I am surprised since Remington's usually have a lot of free bore, all of mine did and I've owned a bunch of them including the 222.

I did encounter a similar situation with Sierra 85 BTHP in the 243 Win. I had to seat well below the mfg.'s test COL both in my Browning X bolt and Tikka T1, however in my Rem 700 I could seat all the way out to the SAMMI max COL. and still be off the lands.

This is precisely why I measure the max COL (base to ogive) of every new bullet and / or new rifle / bullet selected combo before I attempt to reload any ammunition so that I can assure that I am never closer than .010" to the lands, and most of the time about .020".

As long as your measurement method is accurate, it is what it is, and thus seat your bullets accordingly. I personally always seat well off the lands because of variations in bullet ogives and I want to avoid a high-pressure situation and / or getting a bullet stuck in the lands.

 

[chop house]

may or may not be useful info... were not most of those now 'vintage' 700's slow twist? slow twist equating to being throated for light/short bullets. also, as noted bullet design has branched out in the ensuing years. you using modern bullet or an old standby?

you can always use the cleaning rod / two stop collar method to determine coal at the lands, without making dummy rounds for each bullet you are interested in loading.

 

[KCurr0917]

Apologies bullet type might be pertinent info! I’m using Speer 45 grain soft points…I have not measured the twist rate but will do that to be sure..thanks for the help so far!

 

[Coyotefurharvester]

So you touch/into the lands at 2.130 cartridge overall length? Is it the original Rem barrel? This is only an issue for factory ammo.

 

[KCurr0917]

So you touch/into the lands at 2.130 cartridge overall length? Is it the original Rem barrel? This is only an issue for factory ammo.

Yes but I would say it is past calling it touching the lands…definite jam as it was a force the bolt down and pull out the cleaning rod to get bullet out type deal…no clue if it’s original barrel as it was bought used so it’s new to me…and I knew saami spec was a “suggested start” but just thought this was maybe an odd deal?

 

[Ned Ludd]

It might facilitate better replies if you could provide the pertinent measurements in a format easy to decipher in relation to your other observational comments. If I understand your original statement correctly, seating bullets to book max COAL puts them well into the lands. That part was very clear. But you also stated that "seated with no touch they are above SAAMI minimum COAL". To me, that means you still have room to seat the bullet where it will be jumping (i.e. off the lands) without seating it ridiculously far down in the neck. "Above SAAMI minimum COAL" means within the suggested range, or am I not correctly understanding the situation?

If this is the case, it suggests to me that the simplest explanation is that the freebore is simply too short for the bullet/load you're trying to develop. There are several possible ways around this:

First, I would carry out a seating depth test starting with the bullet seated at approximately .003" off the lands (i.e. jumped, but just clear of "touching"), and moving it out in .003" increments to maybe .020" or .030" off the lands, or at least as far as you can reasonably go before it becomes seated "too deep" in the neck (i.e. before the loaded round goes below SAAMI minimum COAL). If you find a good seating depth window within that range, it seems like the problem could be solved fairly quickly.

Second, if one ever pulls any commercial .223 Rem loads, it is obvious that the bullet is seated well down into the case with many of them, even those with light bullets. Although we would never choose to seat handloads this way if we didn't have to, the commercial ammunition can shoot just fine with the bullets seated relatively deep in the neck. If one is ever forced to work up a handload under similar constraints, selection of a very fine grained powder that has a slightly faster burn rate than might normally be selected for the chosen bullet weight can sometimes help. Nonetheless, it is possible to work up a solid load with the bullet seated pretty far down in the neck (i.e. below SAAMI minimum COAL).

Third, would it not be possible to simply optimize seating depth with the bullet seated into the lands? I generally do not choose to seat bullets into the lands unless I have to for several reasons. Fortunately, the bullets I most often work with do not insist upon being seated into the lands. Regardless, shooters in some disciplines rarely ever shoot bullets/loads that are jumped, so seating bullets into the lands can certainly deliver excellent precision. That might be an option worth pursuing given the seating depth issue you described.

Finally, I understand that SAAMI lists minimum/maximum COAL values for .222 Rem of 2.040"/2.130" (p. 66; https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/ANSI-SAAMI-Z299.4-CFR-Approved-2015-12-14-Posting-Copy.pdf). But bullet dimensions are critical to those measurements, as well as freebore length. So is there really such a thing as "minimum" COAL? Perhaps by strict technical definition, the answer is yes. However, there is almost certainly a lot more latitude in practice than those measurements might indicate. In the past, I've seated a fairly long, heavy bullet so far down in the neck of a .223 Rem case that the specific point on the bullet ogive that first contacted the rifling was actually buried well below the case mouth. That particular rifle had a very short freebore...zero, actually. Even though I wouldn't ordinarily recommend doing this unless absolutely necessary, in that case it worked extremely well, and the rifle/load was capable of excellent precision.

In any event, it seems like the simplest solution to your issue without going to any further length such as throating out the chamber (increasing freebore) would simply be to carry out a seating depth test within the range that falls within the SAAMI specs. If you find a seating depth within that range that shoots well, problem solved. It may be necessary to adjust charge weight downward slightly if pressure starts to increase excessively as the bullet is seated into the lands, but that's not a big deal. Frankly, the easiest thing is just to start the entire test, both into the lands and off the lands, using a slightly reduced load for safety reasons. If any apparent seating depth optima are identified, either in the lands or off of the lands, one can then go back and re-visit charge weight if necessary. Best of luck with it, I hope you can get it figured out to your satisfaction.

 

[Coyotefurharvester]

Is the barrel stamped/proof marked 222 REM?

 

[JEFFPPC]

Your making it hard. As do many, including big names.First put the word jam out of your vocabulary. Replace it with the word touch as in a mark on the bullet you can see. Seat a bullet until you get a tiny mark from the hands. This is strictly a reference point. If you seat another bullet to the same base to ogive measurement and get the same mark you are good to go. You can use this reference point to move the bullet in and out in relationship to it. If you want the bullet to be further up the neck of your case than the clambering allows simply have your smith throat the barrel to accommodate. A simple thing made hard to make some appear smarter than the rest on us. Guys argue about the ways to find JAM. Stupid. Does not matter if 2 guys get different numbers as long as each get repeatable numbers. ITS ONLY A REFERENCE POINT.

 

[LCazador]

Those early Remington 700, 222s had a 14 twist and zero freebore with a 3 degree lead. Find the touch, which looks like you already have and start there. Then back off in .005" increments to see what the rifle likes. Measuring COAL may not be the most accurate way to measure as bullet tips will vary. You may want to invest in a bullet comparator tool and measure to ogive or CBTO, cartridge base to ogive. Is the tool for measuring COAL a quality tool? I recently had an experience where a friend had a caliper that was giving some extraordinary measurements!

 

[KCurr0917]

Ned sorry if I didn’t get enough info to make it clear but that was exactly the response I was hoping to get so thank you! And everyone else thanks so much! Guess I was just looking for confirmation/info on this action as I’ve never loaded for anything that I didn’t have to seat bullet long to touch the lands! Thanks again for the help!

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Really only three limitations to seating depth. ..
1) what shoots best in your gun
2)mag length
3)where the lands are.

Diiferent ways of doing this by different people but based on what you've said, I think...You can reach the lands at a length that fits in your magazine.

So, you can start at one of two places. Most start by finding the "touch point". Nothing right or wrong about using this as it's just a reference point and a place to start.
Others, seat a bullet long on close the bolt on it. Extract the round and measure it base to ogive. This is as far into the lands your neck tension will allow you to seat them. The upside is you only have one direction to work from. The down side is you can stick a bullet in the lands there and make extracting a loaded round messy, if you dump powder in everything. I often use this method with known bullets because I already know approximately how far to come out to prevent the bullet from sticking and most of my loads are at some degree of "jam".

Most use the touch method. Depending on the tools at your disposal, it can be a little subjective but as long as you can get consistent touch measurements, they don't have to be super accurate, just consistent. Remember, it's just a reference point from which to start.

Either way, just make small seating depth changes and test them. I like .003 increments. So, if it were me, as I said before, I most always load at some amount of jam. You'll hear different opinions on that so just do what works for you. But myself, I'd start at touch, test, and move into the lands more, in .003 increments, loading 5 at each depth for about 5 groups of 5 shots each. That'll put you into the lands fairly hard at you longest setting but probably not enough to stick a bullet. Ya gotta try it to know with different bullet shapes, etc. You could also just load up say 50 rounds approx and after finding the touch point, go straight to .015 off(shorter) and then load from .015 off to .015 into the lands, .003 increments, 5 rounds at each setting.

That will almost always cover a sweet spot and you just shoot those to find it. For safety's sake, start with a powder charge that is not at max. You will find something good and then go find pressure and re-visit seating depth if need be.

It just depends on what you plan to do with the rifle from there. It'll probably be hard to beat what you find in the seating depth test with a moderate load but if you're competing, there is no "good enough", so you'll always be trying to find that magic load and you can then decide if loading hotter is for you or not. With component and labor costs being what they are now, you may well consider loading moderately and saving component life, like barrels and brass. Competition is a different animal. You run top fuel and don't lift, as long as it shoots and doesn't create a serious safety concern. I don't know any serious competitor that loads down to save bbal life, as a whole. I say that because it's always been that way but I may well do it this year some, but only if I feel like the moderate load leaves absolutely nothing on the table in terms of accuracy.

 

[Ned Ludd]

Ned sorry if I didn’t get enough info to make it clear but that was exactly the response I was hoping to get so thank you! And everyone else thanks so much! Guess I was just looking for confirmation/info on this action as I’ve never loaded for anything that I didn’t have to seat bullet long to touch the lands! Thanks again for the help!

FWIW - there are some things that reloaders often have to simply learn to accept as they gain experience in the process. Some of these things may be even more difficult to accept for those with a strong background in science/research, because they may fall outside what we have been trained to expect in such cases. A couple that come to mind are the fact that seating depth measurements are largely relative, and the indirect nature of measurements such as finding the distance to "touching" versus actual measured CBTO/COAL values. It took me quite some time to "adjust" to doing things a certain way in the reloading process. Nonetheless, it eventually came together and I'm sure at some poiint down the road you will look back on this issue as simply what it is...part of the learning process. Best of luck with it!