Short barreled 338 RUM or Lapua loads?

[effendude]

I am putting together a 16-17" barreled 338 RUM rifle to run with a Thunderbeast 338 Ultra suppressor. This will give me a finished rifle overall barrel length of 27-28". I normally run RL-33 with my 338 rifles but with the shorter barrel, I think I need to switch to a slightly faster powder. I'll be running Berger 250 gr. OTM and Elite Hunter bullets and maybe some partition/A-frames

Does anyone have any experience with a similar project?

Thanks,
Scott

 

[Kurz]

Your best bet is to load Re-25 and Re-26 for complete burn in the barrel using those bullets. Either (both) of these two have worked well for me.

 

[FrankG]

Regardless of the load....I don't think your going to burn all the powder in 16"-17" barrel.

We made a couple hundred 20" finish length barrels in .338 Lapua for Spec./Army. They are shooting box ammo. I do believe the muzzle velocity was in the mid 2400's.

So I would expect even less muzzle velocity out of a 16"-17" barrel.

later, Frank

 

[effendude]

Regardless of the load....I don't think your going to burn all the powder in 16"-17" barrel.

We made a couple hundred 20" finish length barrels in .338 Lapua for Spec./Army. They are shooting box ammo. I do believe the muzzle velocity was in the mid 2400's.

So I would expect even less muzzle velocity out of a 16"-17" barrel.

later, Frank

Thanks Frank.
I know with the short barrel that I won't burn all the powder, that's why I was looking for a faster powder. I'd hate to torch out a $2000 suppressor just to have a cool, easy handling big gun.
Scott

 

[Zero333]

When I get home in a couple hours I can run some #s in Quickload and see which powders have the most complete burn.

But I assume RL-25 would be one of the better ones and Quickload always shows higher pressures burn more of the powder. So fiiguring out the max load and backing off some would be the way to go no matter the powder.

 

[Zero333]

I don't have the latest QL update so can't give data for newer powders. But from what I gathered, the following powders will be your best bet...

Ran #'s for 338 RUM, 250 Berger Hyb., 3.77" COAL, 17" bbl @ 60,000 PSI (or 107 % case fill... whichever was reached first).

Extrapolated from the list....


RL-25 = 100 % powder burned

IMR-4831 = 100 %

ReloadSwiss RS-70 = 100 %

ReloadSwiss RS-60 = 100 %

Norma UPR = 100 %

Viht. N-550 = 100 %

Hybrid-100V = 100 %

Accurate 4350 = 100 %

RL-17 = 100 %

Ramshot Big Game = 100 %

Accurate 3100 = 99.9 %

Ramshot Hunter = 99.8 %

Retumbo = 99.7 %

H-414 = 99.6 %
W-760 = 99.6 %

Norma MRP = 99.5 %

H-4350 = 99.3 %

IMR-4350 = 99.3 %

Ramshot Magnum = 99.2 %

RL-22 = 98.7 %

RL-19 = 98.6 %

Norma 204 = 98.5 %

Norma 217 = 98.2 %

=========================================================

 

[Zero333]

Here is the actual copy of the results. I cut out everything below 2,400 fps.

====================================================

Cartridge : .338 Rem Ultra Mag
Bullet : .338, 250, Berger Hybrid OTM #33104
Useable Case Capaci: 97.110 grain H2O = 6.305 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.770 inch = 95.76 mm
Barrel Length : 17.0 inch = 431.8 mm

Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 60000 psi, or 413 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 107 %

These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

70 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 65%. These powders have been skipped.
Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Vihtavuori N570 104.8 99.0 6.41 2581 93.7 60000 20834 1.052 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-33 105.3 103.6 6.71 2570 94.1 60000 20592 1.052 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-25 101.6 90.5 5.86 2546 100.0 60000 18149 1.049 ! Near Maximum !
PB Clermont PCL 517 98.9 94.5 6.12 2544 98.2 60000 18929 1.047 ! Near Maximum !
SNPE Vectan SP 12 98.7 94.3 6.11 2544 98.2 60000 18899 1.047 ! Near Maximum !
ReloadSwiss RS 80 107.0 103.9 6.73 2543 94.2 57769 20406 1.068 ! Near Maximum !
Norma MRP 2 103.8 92.9 6.02 2540 98.1 60000 19186 1.063 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP30 103.8 92.9 6.02 2540 98.1 60000 19186 1.063 ! Near Maximum !
Norma MRP 94.0 87.8 5.69 2538 99.5 60000 18699 1.059 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N560 95.8 87.7 5.68 2538 97.2 60000 19038 1.051 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 7828 100.3 87.2 5.65 2537 97.7 60000 18591 1.039 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 7828 SSC 94.9 87.2 5.65 2537 97.7 60000 18591 1.039 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon Retumbo 107.0 96.3 6.24 2533 99.7 56958 19084 1.069 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2225 107.0 96.3 6.24 2533 99.7 56958 19084 1.069 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AP 2214 99.9 92.9 6.02 2531 98.0 60000 18311 1.033 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2217 105.1 93.0 6.03 2530 98.0 60000 18263 1.033 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H1000 105.1 93.0 6.03 2530 98.0 60000 18263 1.033 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate MAGPRO 96.2 91.5 5.93 2530 95.8 60000 19138 1.058 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2218 107.0 102.0 6.61 2529 92.1 56427 20751 1.062 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2213 95.9 86.8 5.63 2528 97.6 60000 18365 1.035 ! Near Maximum !
ReloadSwiss RS 70 88.0 83.9 5.44 2525 100.0 60000 17509 1.046 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP5/NP ~approximation 96.1 87.0 5.64 2521 98.7 60000 18376 1.055 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-22 96.1 87.0 5.64 2521 98.7 60000 18376 1.055 ! Near Maximum !
Raufoss RA15 96.1 87.0 5.64 2521 98.7 60000 18376 1.055 ! Near Maximum !
Winchester WXR 98.7 87.4 5.66 2519 98.6 60000 18387 1.056 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP15 98.7 87.4 5.66 2519 98.6 60000 18387 1.056 ! Near Maximum !
ReloadSwiss RS 60 85.0 79.8 5.17 2516 100.0 60000 16677 1.049 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Magnum 96.2 93.8 6.08 2511 99.2 60000 17804 1.053 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP5 NT ~approximation 99.6 90.9 5.89 2503 95.7 60000 18041 1.035 ! Near Maximum !
Rottweil R905 97.5 86.6 5.61 2501 97.2 60000 17965 1.052 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-17 84.2 79.1 5.13 2499 100.0 60000 16561 1.053 ! Near Maximum !
Elcho 17 84.2 79.1 5.13 2499 100.0 60000 16561 1.053 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2209 92.9 82.7 5.36 2498 98.6 60000 17465 1.039 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-19 93.3 83.6 5.41 2494 98.6 60000 17522 1.046 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP14 ~approximation 94.1 84.2 5.46 2489 98.6 60000 17409 1.046 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H414 84.1 79.6 5.16 2488 99.6 60000 17117 1.053 ! Near Maximum !
Winchester 760 84.1 79.6 5.16 2488 99.6 60000 17117 1.053 ! Near Maximum !
PB Clermont PCL 511 86.2 82.2 5.32 2488 99.8 60000 17047 1.053 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Hunter 89.0 82.3 5.33 2487 99.8 60000 17026 1.054 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori 24N41 107.0 102.0 6.61 2487 87.2 59345 18492 1.043 ! Near Maximum !
Raufoss RA4 91.6 82.0 5.31 2480 98.5 60000 17119 1.044 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP4 ~approximation 91.6 82.0 5.31 2480 98.5 60000 17119 1.044 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 204 88.7 82.0 5.31 2480 98.5 60000 17119 1.044 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4831 98.6 85.7 5.56 2480 97.0 60000 17316 1.042 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4831 SC 94.8 85.7 5.56 2480 97.0 60000 17316 1.042 ! Near Maximum !
ReloadSwiss RS 62 86.3 80.9 5.24 2478 100.0 60000 16538 1.069 ! Near Maximum !
Norma URP 88.6 78.4 5.08 2472 100.0 60000 16341 1.058 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP19 ~approximation 88.6 78.5 5.08 2472 100.0 60000 16337 1.058 ! Near Maximum !
Somchem S365 90.1 80.2 5.20 2471 100.0 60000 15889 1.068 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N550 86.1 78.7 5.10 2471 100.0 60000 16478 1.061 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 4350 87.7 78.5 5.09 2466 100.0 60000 16365 1.077 ! Near Maximum !
Somchem S385 93.5 84.6 5.48 2465 99.3 60000 16853 1.065 ! Near Maximum !
Rottweil R904 92.5 81.7 5.29 2462 97.8 60000 16739 1.042 ! Near Maximum !
Winchester Supreme 780 92.4 87.2 5.65 2461 98.6 60000 16742 1.051 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP4 NT ~approximation 89.3 81.2 5.26 2460 99.5 60000 16547 1.056 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4831 92.9 79.6 5.16 2457 100.0 60000 16036 1.067 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N165 98.6 87.3 5.66 2457 99.1 60000 16520 1.056 ! Near Maximum !
SNPE Vectan SP 11 82.8 76.5 4.96 2456 100.0 60000 15714 1.054 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4350 91.2 79.9 5.18 2453 99.3 60000 16258 1.044 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4350 89.5 79.7 5.17 2453 99.3 60000 16227 1.044 ! Near Maximum !
ReloadSwiss RS 52 81.8 75.6 4.90 2453 100.0 60000 15612 1.058 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Big Game 80.1 76.4 4.95 2452 100.0 60000 15597 1.054 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 217 107.0 94.3 6.11 2452 98.2 51812 19203 1.142
Lovex S071 101.9 86.2 5.59 2452 99.9 60000 16467 1.082 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 3100 96.3 86.2 5.59 2452 99.9 60000 16467 1.082 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP7 NT ~approximation 84.3 76.1 4.93 2451 99.7 60000 15827 1.031 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon CFE223 75.7 75.5 4.89 2450 100.0 60000 15512 1.054 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4895 79.9 71.5 4.64 2450 100.0 60000 15580 1.056 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex S070 88.7 78.5 5.09 2450 99.6 60000 16272 1.060 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N160 98.8 84.8 5.50 2449 97.7 60000 16469 1.045 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-15 80.7 72.3 4.68 2447 100.0 60000 15565 1.055 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP11 ~approximation 80.7 72.3 4.68 2447 100.0 60000 15565 1.055 ! Near Maximum !
Raufoss RA11 80.7 72.3 4.68 2447 100.0 60000 15565 1.055 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H380 82.1 75.1 4.87 2445 100.0 60000 15803 1.059 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex D100 104.8 101.0 6.54 2443 88.5 60000 17266 1.051 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 203B 81.1 72.6 4.70 2443 100.0 60000 15425 1.057 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon Hybrid 100V 90.9 78.7 5.10 2442 100.0 60000 15185 1.057 ! Near Maximum !
PB Clermont PCL 516 79.3 75.7 4.90 2442 100.0 60000 15626 1.049 ! Near Maximum !
Rottweil R907 86.9 76.4 4.95 2440 99.3 60000 16033 1.050 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP7 86.9 76.4 4.95 2440 99.3 60000 16033 1.050 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N170 107.0 94.7 6.14 2440 91.9 58446 17556 1.077 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4007 SSC 84.2 76.4 4.95 2440 99.3 60000 16023 1.050 ! Near Maximum !
ReloadSwiss RS 50 80.7 75.2 4.87 2438 100.0 60000 15507 1.053 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4320 82.7 72.8 4.72 2438 100.0 60000 15068 1.041 ! Near Maximum !
Somchem S361 91.7 87.4 5.66 2436 97.1 60000 16416 1.053 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H870 107.0 98.9 6.41 2435 93.1 51501 19355 1.135
Elcho TR140 - preliminary data 81.8 75.6 4.90 2435 100.0 60000 15440 1.054 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Wild Boar 76.8 73.5 4.76 2435 100.0 60000 15205 1.050 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2206H 78.4 70.2 4.55 2435 100.0 60000 15182 1.051 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex S065 87.7 76.8 4.98 2433 99.9 60000 15679 1.058 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot TAC 77.4 74.7 4.84 2433 100.0 60000 15511 1.045 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4895 78.0 69.9 4.53 2433 100.0 60000 15087 1.052 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP3 NT ~approximation 85.8 76.3 4.94 2432 100.0 60000 15412 1.041 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon BL-C2 76.2 74.5 4.83 2432 100.0 60000 15164 1.062 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP3 82.1 74.3 4.81 2430 100.0 60000 15191 1.073 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 203 old 82.1 74.3 4.81 2430 100.0 60000 15191 1.073 ! Near Maximum !
SNPE Vectan SP 9 79.1 73.1 4.74 2429 100.0 60000 15067 1.049 ! Near Maximum !
SNPE Vectan SP 7 77.7 74.6 4.83 2429 100.0 60000 15351 1.058 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon VARGET 83.8 72.5 4.70 2428 100.0 60000 15044 1.041 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2208 83.5 72.5 4.70 2428 100.0 60000 15044 1.041 ! Near Maximum !
Rottweil R903 84.0 74.3 4.82 2428 100.0 60000 15115 1.072 ! Near Maximum !
Winchester 748 74.0 71.3 4.62 2426 100.0 60000 14732 1.055 ! Near Maximum !
Somchem S355 84.3 73.8 4.78 2426 100.0 60000 15088 1.063 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4064 84.1 71.1 4.61 2422 100.0 60000 14825 1.045 ! Near Maximum !
Somchem S341 77.6 74.7 4.84 2419 100.0 60000 14773 1.052 ! Near Maximum !
PB Clermont PCL 507 76.1 71.1 4.61 2417 100.0 60000 14649 1.050 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N530 75.7 68.1 4.41 2413 100.0 60000 14511 1.047 ! Near Maximum !
Somchem S321 74.7 71.9 4.66 2411 100.0 60000 14637 1.057 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex S062 81.8 71.2 4.61 2409 100.0 60000 14551 1.061 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 8208 XBR 77.4 69.3 4.49 2409 100.0 60000 14395 1.046 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-50 107.0 103.6 6.71 2408 89.9 50395 19775 1.172
Accurate 2700 84.5 78.9 5.11 2408 99.3 60000 15251 1.051 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot X-Terminator 75.4 72.1 4.67 2407 100.0 60000 14571 1.046 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 201 79.5 69.6 4.51 2404 100.0 60000 14477 1.061 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2520 76.0 71.7 4.65 2402 100.0 60000 14339 1.074 ! Near Maximum !

 

[yorketransport]

What’s the minimum barrel length or max muzzle pressure that the suppressor manufacturer recommends?

The velocity will be higher than you think. I’ve been shooting a 338/375 Ruger from an 18” barreled specialty pistol for about 6 years and my standard load is a 250gr SMK at 2680 fps using 76.5gr H4350. The 250 Berger OTM hits 2730 with the same charge. A 230gr Hornady ELDx will hit 2800+ with H100-v. All of those are with an OAL between 3.580” and 3.600”. The same loads generate roughly a 30 fps/inch increase in longer barrels. I also have both 30” and 20” 338/408 improved barrels which show about 35 fps/inch difference and the powder which gives the highest velocity in the 30” barrel also gives the highest velocity in the 20” barrel.

I have very little experience with suppressors, so I’m not sure if a 1-2% difference in powder burn will have a significant impact on the suppressor.

 

[simo hayha]

Putting a 16inch barrel on 338 rifle. Is like dating a chic with 3 boobies...... You could but why would you want to.




Go with a folding stock or take off barrel setup.

 

[effendude]

Putting a 16inch barrel on 338 rifle. Is like dating a chic with 3 boobies...... You could but why would you want to.




Go with a folding stock or take off barrel setup.

The purpose is for handling in tighter areas, brush, etc. A rifle with a folding stock becomes a long barreled pistol when you need a rifle quickly. I have plenty of LR rifles, including other 338's. This is meant to be a fun, <200 yard big gun with a suppressor that handles like a standard rifle. 1-2MOA will be fine.
Scott

What’s the minimum barrel length or max muzzle pressure that the suppressor manufacturer recommends?

The velocity will be higher than you think. I’ve been shooting a 338/375 Ruger from an 18” barreled specialty pistol for about 6 years and my standard load is a 250gr SMK at 2680 fps using 76.5gr H4350. The 250 Berger OTM hits 2730 with the same charge. A 230gr Hornady ELDx will hit 2800+ with H100-v. All of those are with an OAL between 3.580” and 3.600”. The same loads generate roughly a 30 fps/inch increase in longer barrels. I also have both 30” and 20” 338/408 improved barrels which show about 35 fps/inch difference and the powder which gives the highest velocity in the 30” barrel also gives the highest velocity in the 20” barrel.

I have very little experience with suppressors, so I’m not sure if a 1-2% difference in powder burn will have a significant impact on the suppressor.

Thunderbeast recommends a minimum of 16" barrels for 338 Lapua and RUM. Your info and Zero333 is of great help to me. Thanks! In reality if the rifle sees 500 rounds of use over it's life, I'd be surprised. Just for some fun.
Scott

 

[Geno C]

The purpose is for handling in tighter areas, brush, etc. A rifle with a folding stock becomes a long barreled pistol when you need a rifle quickly. I have plenty of LR rifles, including other 338's. This is meant to be a fun, <200 yard big gun with a suppressor that handles like a standard rifle. 1-2MOA will be fine.
Scott

Thunderbeast recommends a minimum of 16" barrels for 338 Lapua and RUM. Your info and Zero333 is of great help to me. Thanks! In reality if the rifle sees 500 rounds of use over it's life, I'd be surprised. Just for some fun.
Scott

Look into badlands bulldozer bullets. It’ll help get your speed up and they shoot extremely well

 

[Kurz]

Just for grin and giggles, I had this run to demonstrate where some powders achieve 'All Burned' (purple dash vertical line at 13+ inches) in short barrels. I've been shooting these short barrel suppressed rifles for quite a while because of the demand for suppressors. Re-25/26 both work well here as I stated above. There are others but these two are available right now.

 

[grouse]

I am putting together a 16-17" barreled 338 RUM rifle to run with a Thunderbeast 338 Ultra suppressor. This will give me a finished rifle overall barrel length of 27-28". I normally run RL-33 with my 338 rifles but with the shorter barrel, I think I need to switch to a slightly faster powder. I'll be running Berger 250 gr. OTM and Elite Hunter bullets and maybe some partition/A-frames

Does anyone have any experience with a similar project?

Thanks,
Scott

Hello. Did this build ever happen? Any results? Thanks

 

[effendude]

Instead of building the RUM, I cut the barrel down to 16.5" on a Sako 995 in 338 Lapua and have used it for hunting on/off the last several years here in MN. A couple 500-600# black bears each took one step and fell over, and a few 8 point whitetails dropped at the shot. All with the 250 gr. Bergers and 90 gr. of Retumbo. I use the Thunderbeast 338 Ultra can with the BA brake. Virtually no recoil. Finished barrel/suppressor length comes in at 26" overall. It is a little muzzle heavy with the can but it handles real well.
Scott

 

[wedgy]

I assume you already know this but generally the same powders that give the most velocity in the longer barrels will be the top producers in the short barrel as well. The powder is burned but the gasses are still expanding giving the added velocity in the longer barrel. Went thru the same process as you and consulted some of the specialty pistol guys like Ernie. My buddy just did a shorty 30 Nosler on a folding XLR magnesium chassis that came out very nice but he got a lot of grief for "ruining" the barrel. LOL

 

[wwbrown]

Scott,
You might want to make sure you wear sunglasses to protect eyes from bright muzzle flash.

All jokes aside, for bear hunting I like my bores big and my barrels short, my two bear guns sport 19" barrels a 375 Ruger and a 9.3 x 62. I usually hunt over bait so the ranges are close and I doubt the bears notice any difference between the two, but I like the recoil of the 9.3 x 62 better, so the 375 sits back at camp for a backup.
wade

 

[effendude]

Scott,
You might want to make sure you wear sunglasses to protect eyes from bright muzzle flash.

All jokes aside, for bear hunting I like my bores big and my barrels short, my two bear guns sport 19" barrels a 375 Ruger and a 9.3 x 62. I usually hunt over bait so the ranges are close and I doubt the bears notice any difference between the two, but I like the recoil of the 9.3 x 62 better, so the 375 sits back at camp for a backup.
wade

Wade,
I agree with liking the shorter barrels. Very handy and handle well in the thick stuff. I shot a bunch of bears in the past with my .35 Whelen's, all 20" barrels or so. I drew a tag again this year and plan to use my .458 Lott built on a pre-64. Just because. The bears I target are 500# plus and a heavy slug really makes a difference. It will be hard to give up the bang/flop ability of the Berger 250 gr. bullet though. 5 bears including a grizzly and only 2 took a step after being shot, those 2 only taking 1 step!
Scott

 

[ebb]

If max range is to be 200yds why RUM? It could be a WSM or RSAUM necked to 338. or any number of other cases that will not have problems making mag box length.

 

[effendude]

Because I already have a couple RUM's and a couple Lapua's. Don't need a reamer, custom dies, etc. That's really the main reason. The shortened rifle shoots MOA to 400 yards, giving plenty of reach if I need to back up a client or send a round at a wounded bear at distance.

 

[ebb]

Makes perfect sense with that info. When 6.5-284s were all the rage a guy in Alabama built 2 6.5-06s. made all kinds of sense when he mentioned he had a 55 gallon drum of LC 30-06 match brass. i like the RUMs also I have a 7mm and 2 300s.