Sequence of working up a load

[fatelvis]

Just a quick question for you guys:
When working up a load for a rifle, do you start shooting groups, ladders, OCW, etc., while varying powder charges and THEN, after finding a good powder charge, start experimenting with seating depth? Or should it be done in reverse order? Thanks in advance!

 

[retired]

define the rifle and its intent.
benchrest is different than hunting
what are you trying to achieve?
there are many "correct" ways to work up a load,
some waste more money that others.

 

[fatelvis]

Mid range F-class, 6mm Creedmore, RPR.

 

[K22]

As as varmint and big game hunter here's mine.

1. First measure the COL for the specific bullet I'll be loading in that rifle. Set the initial COL 0.020" off the lands provided the loaded round will fit the magazine and seating depth provides adequate bullet tension.

2. Select a powder suitable to the caliber. Lyman, Sierra, and Nosler all have good suggestions, a good place to start. I like stick powders over ball powders since in my experience they are more temp stable and I hunt in all weathers.

3. Select a bullet suited for the task. For me I have the most success with Sierra and Nosler bullets.

4. Start in the middle of the published load. Go up or down by .5 grains until I hit my standard, i.e. approx. 1/2 moa for my varmint rifles, 1 moa for my big game rifles. I stay away from max loads. After that, for me, it's practice in field hunting situations and hunting. I don't waste barrel life and money trying to squeeze another .1" smaller group size.

5. If I can't hit my standard using the above I change bullets first and retest. In my experience, assuming you're using a suitable powder for the caliber, bullets have the most significant impact on accuracy. You have to realistic too, if you shooting a $300 rifle with a economy scope don't expect sub moa groups.

6. If a rifle just won't shoot using the above; I might try another powder. This sometimes work.

7. If that doesn't work then I pillar bed. Next I free float the barrel. All my rifles are free floated as I never had one that shot well with the stock touching the barrel.

8. In my experience I have found that .020 to .010" from the lands adequate for all my rifles. Because I'm a hunter, I never want to get too close to the lands and have a bullet stick in the lands in the field. Bullet ogives vary quite a bit so getting too close to the lands can create pressure problems also.

 

[ShootDots]

Just a quick question for you guys:
When working up a load for a rifle, do you start shooting groups, ladders, OCW, etc., while varying powder charges and THEN, after finding a good powder charge, start experimenting with seating depth? Or should it be done in reverse order? Thanks in advance!

Let me say this up front: "There are more than a few ways to develop a load". All I can do is tell you how I do one. I will tell you by sharing with you an ACTUAL load development of a cartridge. Just about a month ago I finished a 6 x 47 Lapua. I wanted to use the 108 Berger BT. I have used this bullet with 6mmBrs and Dashers. I have never seen this bullet NOT shoot in a 6mm. It has been MY experience that the 108s like to be "about" 7-8 thousandths INTO the lands or about 16 or so thousandths OFF the lands. I started with 7-8 in. I wanted to use RL-16, which is right on top of H4350 and H4350 is a "go to" powder for that cartridge. Well it shot horribly! I tried another powder to no avail and another and another! WHAT! Obviously it was not a powder issue>>>>so I tried a 105 Scenar, which is an excellent bullet. VOILA!! It shot excellently! However, the Scenar lacks a considerable amount of B.C. So I tried a 107SMK.. It also shoots excellent. So how did I find out what load it was?
1.) I have enough experience with various bullets to have a pretty good idea where they like to be seated in most instances. So I start then there. In the case of the 107SMKs I started 7-8 IN..
2.) I have enough experience with various cartridges and powders to have a "general guideline" as to where to start and where MAX MAY BE.. But you MUST have a chronograph to KNOW where you are! NOTE: if I do not have an idea of where to start because it is a new powder or some wildcat cartridge, I will get a few loading manuals out and look at similar cartridges with about the same powder capacity. I then look at powders in the same burn rate range as I want to use. Then I extrapolate to where I think I need to be. However, since it is only an extrapolation, you better start lower than you think necessary, run the loads thru a chronograph and this WILL put you on track! So there is NO LOAD data for the 6 x 47 using ANY of the new Alliant powders. I know that RL-16 is very close to H4350, so I used those loads that most people who shoot the 6 x 47 and are using H4350. I lowered the starting point by 1 grain and worked slowly up. I never saw any signs of pressure and I went all the way to 40.5grs and it was going 3200+. Anything above 3100 did not shoot well. But in the 3060-3085 area it all shot very well. I ended up at 37.8grs of RL-16.
3.) Next I tried a seating depth test with the 107 MatchKings. I started from 7-8 in where I did my initial load testing. They shot very well. I also went from 3 thousandths OFF to 23 thousandths off. You could see how they would get larger and smaller. BUT none of those could equal the original 7-8 into the lands. So I stayed there.
4.) Now I tried a primer test to see if I could tighten up the groups, if possible and cut down on E.S.s.. Past experience told me to initially start with Fed 205s with RL-16, so that's what I started load development with. Testing with CCI Br-4s, the 205s, Rem 7.5BRs and CCI 450s proved me wrong in this barrel! Instead of the 205s producing the best groups and tightest e.s.s, it did not. The CCI 450s gave me the same accuracy as the 205s BUT cut my e.s.s to single digits! So I gave this load a try.
Two weeks ago we had a 500 yard match at Phoenix Rod and Gun. The conditions were not bad but very tricky. You had to be vigilant in watching BOTH the flags and the heat waves. Long story short, I shot a 600-39Xs.. Not to shabby for first time in competition with the little bitty six millimeter!
Now you have an actual load development event>>>and it is how I do it. Like I said, there are more than a few ways to reach that goal!

 

[Regnar]

define the rifle and its intent.
benchrest is different than hunting
what are you trying to achieve?
there are many "correct" ways to work up a load,
some waste more money that others.

Please enlighten me as to why it would be different

 

[rebel]

Please enlighten me as to why it would be different

Agreed, load one way - the most accurate load wins, no matter the discipline. I hold my hunting rifles to the same standard as I load my target rifles, to be as accurate as they can be. Not starting a sh&tstorm here but this attitude is one of the things I find incredible on this forum.

 

[Regnar]

@retired, I'm s ty I'll waiting for this one. I really want to know why it matters.

 

[dellet]

Regnar & Rebel
I can’t speak for retired, but for one thing, I have never had a piece of steel or paper starve to death due to a bad shot. So I tend to be more critical of my hunting loads, than target.

I’m not good enough to be paid to shoot, so it’s much more important to me, that the loads that actually put food in the freezer, are the most predictable and repeatable that I can assemble for any type of shooting condition.

It might be just my experience, but it seems like the biggest time saver is quality control and uniformity of each step in the process and materials.

What this led me to believe is that if I apply my hunting load techniques and tolerances, for a one shot kill at various distances and conditions to my target loads, my target groups shrink considerably.

I guess good technique and practices outweigh labels.

Just my opinion.

 

[retired]

as silly as it sounds, ask others with the same rifle in the same shooting program. use their info as a starting point.
you maybe be able to bypass a ladder and start with some 3 shot groups. if nothing looks good go shoot a ladder, at the lands with a known powder and bullet.
all guns are diff but some times close is a good starting point.

Mid range F-class, 6mm Creedmore, RPR.

 

[Regnar]

as silly as it sounds, ask others with the same rifle in the same shooting program. use their info as a starting point.

Are you serious? not only do I think that you have nothing relative to offer this is perhaps one of the most stupid and dangerous posts you have made.

I may not know a lot but I know enough to NEVER take anyone's load data and start with it my rifle. jesus christ man, the late are multiple posts daily asking how do you develop a load. have you ever read one? ANYONE who knows what they are doing will ALWAYS say start low and work your way up.

Dangerous and irresponsible for you to post that.

 

[Regnar]

Regnar & Rebel
I can’t speak for retired, but for one thing, I have never had a piece of steel or paper starve to death due to a bad shot. So I tend to be more critical of my hunting loads, than target.

I’m not good enough to be paid to shoot, so it’s much more important to me, that the loads that actually put food in the freezer, are the most predictable and repeatable that I can assemble for any type of shooting condition.

It might be just my experience, but it seems like the biggest time saver is quality control and uniformity of each step in the process and materials.

What this led me to believe is that if I apply my hunting load techniques and tolerances, for a one shot kill at various distances and conditions to my target loads, my target groups shrink considerably.

I guess good technique and practices outweigh labels.

Just my opinion.

I think you miss the point.

Accuracy and precesion are always the goal of any king range shooter and should be fir any hunter. saying that your load development technique varies depending on what what your sport is is redelicious. yes their are different ways but the sport does not or should not change the process which should always be to develop the most accurate reload for your chosen rifle

 

[dellet]

I think you miss the point.

Accuracy and precesion are always the goal of any king range shooter and should be fir any hunter. saying that your load development technique varies depending on what what your sport is is redelicious. yes their are different ways but the sport does not or should not change the process which should always be to develop the most accurate reload for your chosen rifle

No Sir, I didn’t miss your point. But obviously did not make mine clear. I agree that loading each round to the best of your ability, no matter the discipline or use, and to continually refine and improve that process should be everyone’s goal.

My point, if there is one, is that many people will accept minute of deer for a hunting load and then be frustrated because they can’t put together an MOA or better load to impress their friends at the range or local competition. They can be often heard saying “I don’t need that bench rest stuff”.

I never said what my standards or ability are, I just simply stated they weren’t good enough to be paid to shoot, but good enough to put groceries in the freezer. Then you just assumed some things, possibly incorrectly.

I never said I had two different ways of loading, I said my attention to detail for loading to shoot in uncontrolled, unknown or unrepeatable conditions, helped my loads that are shot from a bench at known distances.

Because my inspiration for higher standards was based on worrying more about a poor shot wounding an animal, than dropping a point in competition is no reason to call my thinking redelicious. The whole reason I want a clean quick kill is to enjoy something delicious the first time.

 

[Bart B.]

I may not know a lot but I know enough to NEVER take anyone's load data and start with it my rifle. jesus christ man, the late are multiple posts daily asking how do you develop a load. have you ever read one? ANYONE who knows what they are doing will ALWAYS say start low and work your way up.

I disagree.

Some people who know exactly what they are doing, as well as what they're doing it with, use match winners load data getting their accuracy level and sometimes outscore them. I've never worked up a load for any existing cartridge - bullet combination.

There are some that cannot figure this out nor understand why it works.

 

[dcali]

as silly as it sounds, ask others with the same rifle in the same shooting program. use their info as a starting point.
you maybe be able to bypass a ladder and start with some 3 shot groups. if nothing looks good go shoot a ladder, at the lands with a known powder and bullet.
all guns are diff but some times close is a good starting point.

Are you serious? not only do I think that you have nothing relative to offer this is perhaps one of the most stupid and dangerous posts you have made.

I may not know a lot but I know enough to NEVER take anyone's load data and start with it my rifle. jesus christ man, the late are multiple posts daily asking how do you develop a load. have you ever read one? ANYONE who knows what they are doing will ALWAYS say start low and work your way up.

Dangerous and irresponsible for you to post that.

In some contexts, this is perfectly fine. In Benchrest, F class, and other similar competitions, where people are using practically the same reamer and rifle, good loads will look very similar. The words "in the same shooting program" are important. You should back off a bit and run a pressure test first, but 99/100 times, you'll wind up within a grain of what other knowledgeable shooters are using.

I wouldn't advise that approach for beginners without some mentorship. I believe pretty strongly that they should stick to the book until they get their mind around things, but experienced competitive shooters can do this safely.

 

[Bart B.]

I may not know a lot but I know enough to NEVER take anyone's load data and start with it my rifle.

Well, as commercial loads are someone else's data, does that mean we should not shoot them in our rifles?

Or should we pull their bullets, reduce their powder charge 10 to 15 percent then reseat bullets working up in small increments?

In some rifle matches, you must shoot someone else's loads. You're issued your share of the same lot.

 

[dcali]

My load development technique changes *dramatically* depending on the game. For F class, you have to be very careful and precise. For Service rifle, I don't fire a single round in development, and accept a much wider range of charge weights and brass condition. Different processes for different purposes.

 

[mike a]

I'll bet if we were all in the same room we wouldn't talk to each other like this.

 

[fatelvis]

I'll bet if we were all in the same room we wouldn't talk to each other like this.

Very well put.
After all, we are all brought here because of a common interest and love of the sport. In the famous words of Rodney King....

 

[mike a]

Very well put.
After all, we are all brought here because of a common interest and love of the sport. In the famous words of Rodney King....

Funny story (Rodney King) at that time I was an army recruiter in LA. The night of the riots I was at my parents house watching the news with dad. Buildings were burning. I joked to dad saying let's go burn my recruiting station down. The next morning the news showed my recruiting station burning (the whole mall) dad asked where I was last night.