Second time not as good as First.

[boyscout]

New to reloading for the 6BR. I am using Lapua brass, varget powder, and 95 grain Bergers. The load I am using shot great in the new brass, but in the second loading it has opened up a bit. I am full length resizing. Could it be that the brass has improved a bit so now my pressure is different?

 

[Erik Cortina]

New to reloading for the 6BR. I am using Lapua brass, varget powder, and 95 grain Bergers. The load I am using shot great in the new brass, but in the second loading it has opened up a bit. I am full length resizing. Could it be that the brass has improved a bit so now my pressure is different?

You have to increase your powder charge as you now have more case capacity. Increase charge by 0.1 gr. at a time until your accuracy comes back.

 

[bdale]

Now your really hooked

 

[WyleWD]

A few things.

1) Were your second firings from the same can of Varget or a different one?
2) What was the temperature outside when you were firing the first time and the second time?
3) If neck sizing only is an option for you, then try that. WD

 

[Erik Cortina]

A few things.

1) Were your second firings from the same can of Varget or a different one?
2) What was the temperature outside when you were firing the first time and the second time?
3) If neck sizing only is an option for you, then try that. WD

I will have to disagree with #3, since FL sizing does not hinder accuracy and provides smoother bolt operation.

 

[fm1947]

I disagre with those who disagree with number #3 my fireformed case fit perfect they have to they are sized to the chamber, it is a carbon copy of chamber , the only reason they would not close as smoothly as FL would be headspace and is some case and some calibers after loading 5 or 6 times you may have that issue if so then you FLS but necking saves your brass and is a perfect alighnment with the throat, in my two 6mm br s I have at least 10 reloads all neck size only. and all my cals I do only NS, 6mmbr, 30BR, 308, 223,243.

 

[Erik Cortina]

fm1947,
If it is a "carbon copy", how come you have to full length size at some point? If it's a "carbon copy", shouldn't it be the same all the time? Sound like your brass keeps growing, therefore your "carbon copies" are not the same everytime, therefore by definition not "carbon copies"!

Now, if you full length size, you do the same thing everytime and not have to ever do anything different in your reloading process. That makes it consistent! And I believe the saying goes "consistency equals accuracy" or something like that!

 

[WyleWD]

Erik & dmoran, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Like the other poster stated, I NS only on my 6br and have around a dozen or so reloadings on them. Personally I think if you're looking for consistency, what is more consistent in size than your chamber? A FL die that has "X" difference in dimension(s) from your chamber and brass that has been worked "X" times? I don't think so. But Erik, I totally agree with your signature!! WD

 

[fm1947]

Erik, before I shoot a match I use the Hornady headspace gauge and make sure all my shoulders are the same then I have perfect brass and carbon copy, and yes as I stated some you do have to FLS after x amount of loads , so far I have found that to be true in only my 308 with Win brass never in my 6br or .223 with Lapua brass, and so far on my new 30br 5 loads lapua brass we are so good with that one, so my point is BRASS quality makes a difference there, I believe.

I will have to agree with WyleWD
that FLS is a loose fit in a sense and for a semi auto the only way to go for proper feeding, but for a bolt Fire Forming makes more sense.

But like everything else to each his own, everyone has a method I am sure you all have run into reloaders who are strickly safe and secure and only load according to a manual and would never think of running at the lands or diviating from the manual in anyway, so there you go.

There is no right or wrong way it is what you feel is best, and as long as that bullet gets where you want it to go then you are doing it right.

 

[GSPV]

Lapua 6BR brass has a *lot* of neck tension out of the box. Not saying that's the issue, just that it could be one factor.

 

[mikecr]

I partial NS with only a shoulder bump.
When you suggest "FL sizing does not hinder accuracy", just how do you know that? What real basis is there for this notion?
By this, I don't mean anectdotal so & so does it in competition, so it must be good enough.

And the "if you full length size, you do the same thing everytime and not have to ever do anything different in your reloading process. That makes it consistent!" is dead wrong. FL sizing changes everything -everytime. That's what it's all about. That brass you keep trimming away, is a clear change to the process, right? It results in changing capacity. And what of the donuts, and varying bumps, and changing/varying neck tension, and hardening of the cases?
boyscout is observing already that a fireformed case deviates significantly from a new case. He should really have anticipated this. He also has an opportunity here to observe that a FL sized case deviates from a fireformed case. And if he were to measure & track H20 capacity of FL sized cses, he would observe continuing deviation.

While it's true that everyone, shooting every cartridge & chamber & load, cannot get away with neck sizing only. And it's true that everyone can FL size whether needed or not.
This in no way means that FL sizing is 'better'.
IMO, this notion is a rationalization of the lazy.

With a plan, beginning with the cartridge and reamer choice, a reloader can manage their sizing so that FL sizing is never needed. But it has to be recognized that this will never be an opton with something like a 30-06, or a sloppy chamber, or stupid pressure loads. If ths is what you have, you'll be FL sizing, and apparently assuming that it's the best approach in reloading..

 

[Erik Cortina]

I partial NS with only a shoulder bump.
When you suggest "FL sizing does not hinder accuracy", just how do you know that? What real basis is there for this notion?
By this, I don't mean anectdotal so & so does it in competition, so it must be good enough.

And the "if you full length size, you do the same thing everytime and not have to ever do anything different in your reloading process. That makes it consistent!" is dead wrong. FL sizing changes everything -everytime. That's what it's all about. That brass you keep trimming away, is a clear change to the process, right? It results in changing capacity. And what of the donuts, and varying bumps, and changing/varying neck tension, and hardening of the cases?
boyscout is observing already that a fireformed case deviates significantly from a new case. He should really have anticipated this. He also has an opportunity here to observe that a FL sized case deviates from a fireformed case. And if he were to measure & track H20 capacity of FL sized cses, he would observe continuing deviation.

While it's true that everyone, shooting every cartridge & chamber & load, cannot get away with neck sizing only. And it's true that everyone can FL size whether needed or not.
This in no way means that FL sizing is 'better'.
IMO, this notion is a rationalization of the lazy.

With a plan, beginning with the cartridge and reamer choice, a reloader can manage their sizing so that FL sizing is never needed. But it has to be recognized that this will never be an opton with something like a 30-06, or a sloppy chamber, or stupid pressure loads. If ths is what you have, you'll be FL sizing, and apparently assuming that it's the best approach in reloading..

What real basis do I have? Well, my guns are very accurate, that's how I know.
I have never heard of anyone that could not get their gun to shoot because they were FL sizing, therefore accuracy is not hindered!

But it doesn't matter because you don't neck size only anyways, which is my point!

 

[expiper]

no matter what your views are on case sizing ......I think one of the previous posters hit the nail on the head.....the boyscout is not duplicating the original neck tension (whether he is sizing the case body or not) and getting different results....the 95 bullets have a short bearing surface and are very sensitive/aware of tension variations.....the answer to him is ""what is your neck tension compared to original..."" ....if using a bushing die ...go to a smaller bushing....Roger

 

[boyscout]

Thank you everyone for your helpful suggestions. Im seems up until now I have had it easy with my reloading, so far everything has been 6.5x55 and larger and not as sensitive. I have been using 31.3 grains of Varget but will try moving up from there, slowly. I live in north Texas and so the temperature has cooled off a bit, but I thought Varget being one of Hogdons extreme powders that it shouldn't be temp. sensitive. Or is that just marketing b.s..? It was from the same bottle. I am hopeful, even in poor conditions i got a .5 group at 300 and 1.5 at 500 yards, but it opened up considerably last outing.
Thanks again.

 

[fm1947]

6MM BR Norma BERGER DATA
95 Grain AA XMR 2495 26.0 2579 29.0 2835 92.6%
95 Grain RE-15 27.5 2578 30.7 2859 93.8%
95 Grain VARGET 27.0 2567 29.9 2814 90.8%
95 Grain IMR 4895 27.0 2611 30.1 2882 94.0%
95 Grain NORMA 203B 27.5 2567 30.9 2864 94.4%
95 Grain Ramshot Big Game 29.5 2612 32.8 2895 99.7%
95 Grain VIHT N150 29.0 2614 32.1 2868 99.2%
95 Grain WW 760 30.5 2566 34.2 2890 99.1%
95 Grain VIHT N140 27.0 2564 29.9 2797 93.2%
95 Grain H4895 26.0 2502 29.1 2758 90.0%
IF MY CALCULATIONS ARE RIGHT YOU COULD GO TO 32 GR , so I took a fire formed case and put 32gr in it your about 1/4 inch from top not sure if it will fit in FL case but that would be 100% case capacity 35 brings it to the top does bolt feel hard to open after shooting at 31.3?

 

[deadlyswift]

the boyscout is not duplicating the original neck tension

I will agree with duplicating uniformed neck tension.

I want get in the argument as far as neck sizing or FL sizing. I'll just add that I have went back to FL sizing everytime. Not because it gave me better accuracy, but more consistent accuracy. Many will argue this to no end. I'm not going to tell you to FL or Neck size. Just what has worked out best for me.

 

[fm1947]

There are some of the top shooters in the country come on here some of the best gunsmiths, and top everything in the gun world, and some FLS and some NS and some anneal their cases after every fired round.

 

[Firefighter]

I agree with Eric & deadlyswift,,,,I full length size every caliber i own. All my brass gets exact prepping system. Since I stopped only neck sizing, my rifles shoot so much more consistant. Once I find a promising load, the only thing I change is seating depth until the group comes together as a nice little cluster. Dont have to worry about anything else because I know all my brass is exact. Just my system.

 

[mikecr]

How do you KNOW all your FL sized brass is the same?
Have you measured & tracked it's h20 capacity?

Sizing means taking brass past a point of yield.
Everyone knows that sized brass hardens a bit with each cycle, and that hardened brass springs back differently.

For consistency from sizing -minimal sizing- is desired. If this is not possible, then anneal if possible, or accept inconsistencies and shorter case life.
But FL sizing means actually SIZING the entire neck and body of a case. Repeatedly hardening the entire length, changing it's springback, and it's length(causing donuts and a trimmed loss of brass), and loaded case capacities, and neck tension.
You can't anneal the entire case so what does that leave you?
It leaves many of us with better choices.
Better cartridge designs
Better chambers
Better dies
Lower load pressures
If you have no choice today but to FL size, then really, you have already made your choices.

I know plenty of shooters FL size, and are happy enough with this.
But it's my contention that FL sizing does not produce the highest potential from ammo. That many great shooting FL sized cartridges(not all) would shoot at least as well, and even better, if they were not FL sized.

Anyhow, it's a good discussion from both angles, and I've just provided some technical basis for my view. Perhaps there is technical basis FOR full length sizing as providing higher potential than minimal sizing?

 

[johara1]

After 50+ years of loading, I learned what works. I was was in short range for a while and got a very good education on loading. I learned that bump dies don't work, full length sizing works better you still push the shoulder back .0015 - .002 but you have support for the rest of the case. I size .001 at the shoulder and .0005 at the base if possible so it doesn't move that much,and i anneal every time.
With neck sizing you rely on the spring back to be the same and it isn't,i gave up on that years ago with the first FL sizing die for the PPC. now i have over 30 loadings out of my Dasher cases and will start to replace the with 500 of the same lot and yes they go from one gun to the other. i have the reamer so they are the same, most of these barrels shoot the same load some better than the others. The biggest the is you have to be constant in what and how you load. You can not short change an part of the process. Bullet trimming and pointing work, annealing works, beam scale works and full length sizing works........jim