Seating + Crimping

[SpiritNugent]

I was wondering what you guys thought about crimping ammo?

I am working on a project right now with a 222. I am seating my bullets to seat into the magazine, seating them all using a comparator to make sure each is dead on. Using Lapua Brass.

My seating stem is all the way down, and the only way I got them to fit into the magazine was to put a slight crimp on them. It's not enough to even notice...

What do you guys think about crimped ammo? I don't have a choice right now with this seating die.

Planning on getting a Redding Competition seater, but for now, for the initial stages of load development, this die will do.

Just wondering if this crimping idea is a bad idea ;D

Thanks fellas!

 

[Larryh128]

There are quite a few people that feel crimping improves their accuaracy. I would tend to believe that this could be due to varying neck tensions & that the crimp puts a constant in the equation. The only thing that I would caution you about is watching for pressure signs. The crimping will definitely increase the chamber pressures. I shoot a lot of 130 gr x 30cal Barnes TTSX & they recomend crimping this bullet because of the short bearing area. I tryed it but quit because it would take close to the top loads & take them over the top with hard bolt lift. Just watch for pressure signs & you'll be fine.

 

[seanhagerty]

I shoot an AR in 5.56. I was grouping a bit less than an inch. I used lee's FCD with a product called consistent crimp and shrunk my groups to just over a half inch.

I would say that crimping helps.

Sean

 

[K22]

I mean no disrespect but why would you want crimp a 222. This is one of the most accurate cartridges ever developed and I find it hard to believe that you'd have to crimp this cartridge to acheive great accuracy.
I shot one for years, 19.5 grains of IMR 4198, Remington 7.5 primer, 50 grain Sierra Blitz bullets. My rifle was nothing more than a Remington 700, sporter weigh, 24" length. It shot consistanly under 1/2 moa until I shot out the barrel.

 

[SpiritNugent]

I mean no disrespect but why would you want crimp a 222. This is one of the most accurate cartridges ever developed and I find it hard to believe that you'd have to crimp this cartridge to acheive great accuracy.
I shot one for years, 19.5 grains of IMR 4198, Remington 7.5 primer, 50 grain Sierra Blitz bullets. My rifle was nothing more than a Remington 700, sporter weigh, 24" length. It shot consistanly under 1/2 moa until I shot out the barrel.

I'm in a sticky situation. I am using 50 grain Nosler BTips, and the max OAL is too long to hold the bullet in the neck.

So I figured since I would be hunting with this rifle, I would start with the OAL at magazine length to reliably feed.

With that said, the die I got from Redding in their standard FL die set doesn't allow me to seat a bullet that far (to fit inside the magazine) without crimping. The seating stem is all the way down, and the only way I can get it to where I need it, is to screw the die in a little more. And with this, comes a slight crimp.

I use Redding competition seaters on all my varmint calibers, but didn't buy one for this rifle yet.

This rifle is a model 700 too. 24" barrel.

This is my first time crimping. I was forced into it by a die that wouldn't let me seat anymore with the seating stem. Believe me, I didn't want to do it. But just seeing if it will "hurt" anything as I never did it for a rifle before.

 

[jo191145]

Call Redding

Something is wrong with the seater. Wrong seating plug?
The factory had a .32 caliber plug in my 223 Rem seater. It happens. :-X

Also measure the length of the seater body itself. Perhaps it was cut into the wrong body.

A little roll crimp won't hurt too much. You seem to know its not desirable so call Redding and they should help you fix the situation.

One of the worse things that can happen while roll crimping a non canellured bullet.
Go just a few thousandths too much and you'll begin to bulge the brass just under the shoulders making chambering difficult :-X Much depends on the hardness of the particular bullet and strength of the brass.

I toyed with it a long time ago. Was actually able to get some great accuracy with a whole lot of tweaking.
In the end the conclusion became obvious. Its almost impossible to get the exacting consistency required firing after firing.

 

[fdshuster]

No matter what the alternative(s) I would and have never applied any type or amount of crimp to a jacketed bullet that does not have a crimping cannalure. The bullet maker goes to a lot of effort to produce a match bullet, and then it's going to be at least partially damaged by applying a crimp--- no thanks! I also have 222 chamberings (2) and have never seen the need to use a crimp ( using Lapua also), but am also using Redding and Wilson dies. Get the proper dies and forget about crimping. Just my opinion and experience with a lot of years with this fine cartridge.

 

[SpiritNugent]

One thing I noticed about the seating die is the seating stem has 4 threads above the lock ring yet... like it should be going in more, but isn't. It bottoms out.

I figure I'll just get the Competition seater and forget about this die... I was only going to use this seater until I got the competition seater anyways. My plans were to work with this seater, find what powder my gun liked, and by then, the competition seater should be here.

 

[RonAKA]

I'm with Joe on this. Your die must be defective. A normal seating die should not be crimping the neck.

If you are going to buy new dies I would suggest you check out Forster. I use their Bushing/Bump die to size, and get whatever neck tension I want by switching bushing size. Their Ultra Micrometer Seating die also works very well. You will probably find Forster is less expensive than Redding, while providing results which are as good or better.

 

[artbosco]

No matter what the alternative(s) I would and have never applied any type or amount of crimp to a jacketed bullet that does not have a crimping cannalure. The bullet maker goes to a lot of effort to produce a match bullet, and then it's going to be at least partially damaged by applying a crimp--- no thanks! I also have 222 chamberings (2) and have never seen the need to use a crimp ( using Lapua also), but am also using Redding and Wilson dies. Get the proper dies and forget about crimping. Just my opinion and experience with a lot of years with this fine cartridge.

+1, +2, and +3!

 

[fdshuster]

And I'm with RonAKA on the Forster die's. I should have mentioned them along with my Redding & Wilson. They are an excellent die, and I especially like the cross-bolt lock ring that is standard on their die's. others are still using the very small socket set screw that jams into the thread making quick adjustments impossible. I also prefer the Forster Benchrest seaters with the micrometer adjustment. All high quality.

 

[SpiritNugent]

I use the Redding Competition Seating dies in all my other cartridges. I didn't buy one for this caliber yet, and was just trying to load my first batch with this die until the new seater came in.

It's not like I wanted to crimp these rounds... I'm not new to reloading and shooting from the bench. I just figured I'd ask because I never had this problem before with a seating stem not allowing me to seat where I wanted.

I'll just wait until the new Redding Competition die comes in, I'll shoot these rounds in the mean time, maybe can narrow down some powders.

 

[Heavies]

What are you folks view on the Lee factory crimp die for rifle cartridges, for bullets without cannalure?

I have been using this collet type crimp die to apply a light crimp to my .30-06 rounds(non-cannalure match bullets), I have found that it decreases es and sd. I have also found, as long as I use a light crimp and don't over do it, no detectable damage to the bullet.

 

[RonAKA]

What are you folks view on the Lee factory crimp die for rifle cartridges, for bullets without cannalure? I have been using this collet type crimp die to apply a light crimp to my .30-06 rounds(non-cannalure match bullets), I have found that it decreases es and sd. I have also found, as long as I use a light crimp and don't over do it, no detectable damage to the bullet.

I thought Lee used the collet in the sizing die, and not the seating die?

 

[seanhagerty]

What are you folks view on the Lee factory crimp die for rifle cartridges, for bullets without cannalure?

I have been using this collet type crimp die to apply a light crimp to my .30-06 rounds(non-cannalure match bullets), I have found that it decreases es and sd. I have also found, as long as I use a light crimp and don't over do it, no detectable damage to the bullet.

I like it. Using the Lee FCD I shrank my groups almost half an inch with a 75gr Hornady HPBT with no cannalure.

 

[Heavies]

I thought Lee used the collet in the sizing die, and not the seating die?

The die I'm speaking of is the rifle type Factory Crimp Die.
http://www.leeprecision.com/html/catalog/dies-crimp.html

This die works on the same principle as the neck collet die. It squeezes the neck around the shank of the bullet. The amount of squeeze is dependent on the amount of force applied to the press handle, so, it is possible to deform the projectile, when too much force is used.

That product, Consistant Crimp (http://www.precisionaccuracycompany.com/consistent-crimp-starter-kit-lee-style.html), looks to be very good, as you can have a measure of actual force applied, as opposed to developing a 'feel' for how much crimp you are applying.

When I use the LFCD, I used very light pressure, turn the round a quarter turn, and give it one more light press. I have had good results.

I know I'll probably get burned but....
I was even thinking of having Lee make me up a LFCD for my 6br to play with. Any one ever tried it? ;D

 

[K22]

There seems to be something strange going on with the seating die or the adjustment of it. I've never experienced any problem with seating the bullets deep enough to fit the magazine.

I'd have a fellow reloader look at your set up or call the die mfg but something just isn't right. You should be able to seat the bullet deep enough without crimping. I'd avoid crimping the Nosler BT since there is no crimping groove.

 

[fdshuster]

Sorry folks, but until I see Tony Boyer, Lester Bruno, and all the other top benchrest competitors crimping their loads I'll continue to pass on that idea. And, from the "Precision Shooting Reloading Guide", page 134: "Needless to say, Do Not Crimp your ammunition! It's not necessary with any dies which produce normal case neck tension, and causes a whole lot more problems than it solves". From the Lyman Reloading Handbook, 49 th edition, page 31: " Because crimping has a somewhat detrimental effect on accuracy, crimping should be limited to ammo intended for one or more of the just mentioned applications. Keep in mine that your bullets must have a cannelure ( a groove around the bullet) in order to crimp".

 

[RonAKA]

I thought Lee used the collet in the sizing die, and not the seating die?

The die I'm speaking of is the rifle type Factory Crimp Die.
http://www.leeprecision.com/html/catalog/dies-crimp.html

OK, got it now.

 

[jo191145]

[quote
I know I'll probably get burned but....
I was even thinking of having Lee make me up a LFCD for my 6br to play with. Any one ever tried it? ;D
[/quote]

Save your money.
Been down this road long ago.
As I said I saw good results roll crimping for a factory varmint rifle with long jump to the lands. Saw good results with the same rifle using a LFCD also.
Without getting into a lengthy dissertation on the cons of crimping, trust me, in the end theres better ways

Putting a crimp on any brass that says Lapua on the base is sacreligious ;D
Once you get into the "accuracy cartridges" theres absolutely no need to crimp.

The LFCD in my opinion really chews up brass. All that overworking of the neck creating ridges is not something I would consider doing too an already accurate cartridge.
Actually, personally, I'll never crimp another bullet again. YMMV